to think Beaver's shouldn't allow girls, as Rainbows don't allow boys?

[CoralRose]

Can't see why it is this way? DS is asking... what's the answer? Why are girls allowed to join beavers, but boys not allowed to join rainbows?

Seems to be more of an issue for parents than for children. I suspect if the children were left to it, they'd be perfectly happy. I suggest if your DS is really unhappy not having a boys only activity you find him something else as clearly scouting isn't suited to him and they're not going to change it for your child.

Alternatively rather than complaining about a volunteer led organisation why not start your own boy only club? Problem solved. HTH.

Forgot to add I agree with seeker. It would be wrong to have girls of different religious/cultural backgrounds excluded from everything. On that basis alone it is vital that guiding remains single sex. I'm quite happy for my boys to not have the opportunity to go to brownies/guides if it means girls of all backgrounds have a safe place to go. Sometimes we just have to consider others in society rather than just ourselves.

boys only groups are 'allowed' - but the Scouts chose to allow girls in. Girl Guiding is a separate organisation that makes its own decisions.

Boys are accepted at our local Rainbows. There have so far been no takers though. A lot of girls here join beavers where I'm pleased to say they are accepted.

Out of interest (as we are talking Rainbows and Beavers) is there a reason that Rainbows starts at 5 years, while Beavers is 6 years? Ds1 managed to get it just before his 6th birthday but I wondered why there was a difference. There are only 2 girls in ds1's group, I thought there would be more tbh.

Just that they are organised differently, Lula. The two organisations are not connected, so there is no reason they should do things at the same time. :)

TheBoulter - boys aren't allowed in GirlguidingUK. Maybe it was the leaders boys who were there? My boys often come to Guiding events that I am running (if I can't find a babysitter) and have a ball, they also enjoy cubs!
The activites that any group (Scout or Guide) runs is dependant on the Leaders in charge, some are more active than others.
My Guides (age 10 - 14) choose the activities that they want to do, last term we went potholing one week and to the ballet the next, a good group does a huge variety of activities.
We have discussed if our Members (35 of them) would like to admit boys and the answer was a resounding no! They feel that they try more activities and are much less self consious when it is only girls. I don't think this is such an issue with the younger sections though.

gcat - I'm with you 100%. I also think the same is true of boys on their own - far more willing to try a full range of activities if not going to be laughed at/teased by girls. Maybe you're right that it is the older sections where this is true, but I think it is an important philosophy throughout.

Here in my bit of the world there is a huge waiting list for beavers/ cubs, partly because of a lack of volunteers but also because roughly a third of the pack are girls. The girls also have rainbows and brownies.

My Ds only got in because they started a new pack.

I am a bit confused. What religion/culture does not allow pre-pubertal boys/girls to mix? I don't see this as an argument not to allow boys into Rainbows or, arguably, Brownies.

That said, as has been mentioned above, the reason for letting girls into Scouts was a numbers one, nothing to do with sexism and for some reason, girls have never stopped joining Guides (obviously they weren't all like the Brownies/Guides I was in). When I was a Brownie we weren't even allowed to sleep under canvas, presumably we would immediately dissolve in the rain due to our extreme delicacy [ancient emoticon].

My DD is going to have to join Beavers when the time comes (if she wants to, of course), as there is no local Rainbow group.

Both my girls have been in Beavers, Cubs and Scouts. They love it, join in wholeheartedly, don't throw hissy fits or expect anyone to pander to them. They wanted to do it because the activities were more their cup of tea and knew what kind of activities there would be. Nothing has been downplayed because there are girls in attendance.

I would also add that dh has done a huge amount of helping out and supporting of Beavers, Cubs and Scouts, week in and week out over the years. If people like him didn't do it then there wouldn't be a group for boys or girls to be in in the first place.

oranges The Brownie pack I went to didn't sleep under canvas either, though we did as Guides.
One of my fav things about Brownies was that it was all girls, so I got time away from my 2 brothers, and vice versa for them at beavers/cubs/scouts.

Ineed - actually we didn't sleep under canvas as Guides either but I think that was down to the Leaders' preference for a solid roof rather than a general ban. Other Guides I knew went on Guide camp. I was a Ranger before I slept in a tent (if you exclude one never-to-be-repeated family holiday in a Carefree Camping tent in France).

At 16, I joined Ventures and a whole new world of boys, caving and extreme sports opened up to me (microlight flying and hang-gliding tasters only being two examples). It made me wish I had been able to join Scouts from the start.

To be fair though, I did go on a 2 week walking holiday in the Swiss Alps when I was 10 with the Guides which was not bad going so, on reflection, I didn't lose out that much in the Guides.

Apologies for hijacking the thread with my random childhood reminiscences....

People seem to be operating on the assumption that what goes on in the Guides is equivalent to what goes on in the Scouts is somehow linked. It isn't. They are entirely separate organisations and make their own decisions.

The Guides haven't been 'allowed' to be girls only for some particular reason. They don't have to legally provide any justification at all. There is no legislation that forces a youth organisation to admit both genders or 'allows' them to be single sex. The Scouts made a decision that they were going to admit girls and the Guides did not make the same decision about boys. They are entirely separate and do not have to make decisions based on what the organisation does.

If you want your son to join a single sex organisation, such organisations exist, such as the Boys' Brigade.

If you want your son to join an organisation that admits both boys and girls, such organisations exist, such as the Woodcraft Folk.

If you are unhappy with the structure, organisation or availability of existing organisations run by volunteers, you can set up your own club and no law will stop you from making it single sex or both sexes.

As for people complaining about gender in ballet classes. Have you ever actually seen a ballet? The dancing is highly gendered. If you don't want your son to dance differently to the girls, put him a class that teaches a style of dance other than ballet, of which there are many.

signet "Seems to be more of an issue for parents than for children. I suspect if the children were left to it, they'd be perfectly happy. I suggest if your DS is really unhappy not having a boys only activity you find him something else as clearly scouting isn't suited to him and they're not going to change it for your child. "

DS's best friend goes to Rainbows. He wants to go. I said, "Rainbows are for girls, but you can go to Beavers". He goes. There are girls. He asks me why girls are allowed to Beavers but boys not allowed to Rainbows. What message do you think this sends to him? What answer can I give that makes him feel as important as girls, even though they have this 'exclusive club'? It's sexist, and in his words, 'not fair'.

I dont buy at all that 'it's vital guiding remains single sex so as not to alienate girls from a different religious background'. What a load of bollocks. If it doesnt fit then dont do it.

I did brownies in the 70's for all of 2 weeks before I realised it was a pile of steaming prissy shite. Did my mum jump and down and argue my human rights for me to be allowed into cubs. No of course not, girls werent allowed so I found other options.

Why is there this mentality that what is available to all boys must be available to all girls.

dd goes to Brownies and beavers but much prefers Beavers because of its rough and tumble. I think all groups should include both sexes. And beavers let her straight in (she is in a wheelchair) while the Brownies refused 'children like that' until HQ got involved.
Its sexist not to let boys into Brownies.

Coralrose, I suggest you explain to your son that lots of different clubs exist for young people. Some of them are just for boys, some of them are just for girls, and some of the are for both.

I don't see what is unfair about that at all.

Which are just for boys?

It is unfair. He's excluded form a club he would like to join based purely on his sex. I'm not going to tell him that's fair.

"I dont buy at all that 'it's vital guiding remains single sex so as not to alienate girls from a different religious background'. What a load of bollocks. If it doesnt fit then dont do it. "

So, was I keep saying, you would rather some girls had no choice at all than boys had one less choice?

How about...

Lots of jobs exist for people. Some of them are just for men, some of them are just for women, and some of them are for both.

Is this OK?

No. So why would I want my son to believe that is the way of the world?

It seems the issue is with Rainbows/Guides etc for excluding rather than being so bitter about Beavers and Scouts for including.

I feel it should be one way or the other BendyBob