to think some parents are totally unrealistic about how schools work?

[CailinDana]

I'm a former primary teacher (now SAHM) and I loved my job but the attitude some parents had towards me and my colleagues was one of the worst aspects of being a teacher. Despite having never taught, and being a maximum age of eleven when they were last in a primary school, some parents seem to think that they know far better than teachers how to run a school.

Some threads on MN give me flashbacks to those parents. It just makes my blood boil when parents seem to be putting everything teachers do under a microscope as though they're bound to be doing something wrong. Some parents seem to be under the impression that teachers are minor dictators, completely controlling everything in the classroom with no professional standards or supervision. Other parents believe that a teacher, one solitary adult, should be au fait with every little aspect of every child's progress and ability (eg reading books) at all times despite having at least 25 children to teach. Who do they think teachers are? Where do they get these ideas from?

I do definitely think that parents should be involved in their child's education but I have seen good, hardworking teachers ground down by overbearing parents who question their every move. Teaching is a difficult enough job without feeling like people who have no real understanding of the job are constantly monitoring you. AIBU to think that to a large extent parents should trust teachers to have their children's best interests at heart and that they should try to have realistic expectations of what teachers can actually do?

Why is "service" equivalent to supplying goods to anonymous customers? . What a strange definition of service!

Cailin, I think you are really saying you resent being questioned. All professionals and those working with people can and should be questioned and not treated as lord and master of all they survey because they pursued a particular career path.

When people didn't question authority in Ireland, it led to very serious and sustained abuse of children for generations. Those abusers had a "relationship" with their victims as surely as any Mr. Chips. We can play with the semantics of that word while we're at it...

Well done on ignoring the content of what I was saying to query one line, though!

I have always considered my DC's education my responsibility. Indeed the law tells me that I am indeed responsible.

I choose many resources and school is only one of them.

I chose my DC's particular school because of its comittment to the parent/school partnership. I listen to them, of course, but I also expect them to listen to me...which they have always done.

I do think many teachers (probably many people generally if MN is anyhtig to go by) are too defensive. A question is just that; a question not an implied critisism. And intelligent people will ask questions and lots of them.

Cailin Sorry for not coming back to you sooner. Yes I read all the posts and it was hard to reply and keep up. I did misread the tapping circumstance and for that I totally apologise for.

That said I still say tapping is wrong regardless of how it is used. It is wrong to touch any child especially if you dont know the childs/families circumstances and as a supply you did not. My DS detests touch due to sensory issues and it hurts him and so that would have my child hiding under a table. And to me one that "zones out" a lot also has attention needs that need looking into and the other distruptive child I still feel extremely sorry for. There is ALWAYS a reason for this behaviour. However I wouldnt say it was you who has let these children down as you were supply but I would say the school and the normal teacher has and the other child should not be left to get so stressed its cruel and unfair to him let alone unfair to the supply teacher.

I still stick to teachers not having the experience to decide wether a child should be in MS school. They said that with son but were totally incorrect in their assumption, as with all correct provision and listening to "the parent" on how he best performs, he is coping and learning without disruption to others.

perfume yes I do make a thorough "fist"?? of reading paperwork before I am a PITA........I have had to. With a child with SEN you collect a LOT of paperwork and have a lot of battles due to "said teachers" not having the same expectations as you do of your child. I wouldnt tell teachers how to teach math, english, geography etc but I will tell them how to best teach my child. It took them months to "ask" and are relieved they did. We now have a great relationship.

I'm not a teacher but a doctor. All theories women in my family are teachers. It gets to the point where we can't chat over dinner at times, mainly because the reception miss contingent can't cope with questions at all

We all moan about work, fine, that's what family is for (before you ask in my case it's all business, admin and organisation problems not confidential stuff) but while I, my father brother etc accept ideas to improve our lot, or debate how we've tried something and it was unsuccessful, the teachers find any such suggestion unacceptable and a comment on their professionalism to the point of suggesting taking a nice salad for lunch as per new recipe I've found and being bitten down as it's not a sandwich!!

I'm sure they're fab with the kids in their classes, but really, stop treating grown ups like we're 5 too!

And of course medicine is a service profession

Theories? The other!

Havent read the thread yet, but my son's teacher is wonderful and although I don't see come in contact with her to chat to more than about once a fortnight, she always has something to say about ds's progress (initiated by her) and obviously knows him pretty well, and is clued up about his progress off the top of her head.
I have made only one suggestion to her regarding the kids school books, which she implemented.

So YANBU to hate pushy intefereing parents, but YABU to think a teacher shouldn't know what each of her pupils are doing.

I think it can be very difficult to come "back" to school as a parent, now that we are generally older when we have our DCs. After 15 years in the workplace and the community where by and large people listened to my ideas with respect, and treated me like an adult, I found it a huge shock when my first DD started school. Although I have the utmost admiration and respect for DDs teachers and generally try to leave them to it, they do seem to start from the basic premise that parents know nothing, have no useful ideas, and are basically an irritation. It takes quite an adjustment to realise that all the rules have suddenly changed!

I was a research psychologist zzzz studying children with dyslexia, specific language impairment, down syndrome and autism. My main job was to test for specific problems in the children's development and to chart progress in areas such as reading and social development. WRT the boy I was teaching, I said in my opinion he should have been in a special school. His teachers and head teacher agreed with me incidentally but his parents weren't interested. After 6 years of every intervention under the sun and every effort from the school to improve school life for the poor boy it was clear that things had just gone too far and he was having a horrible time of it :( His parents were the total opposite extreme of the pushy parent, they didn't turn up to meetings, they ignored letters home they just didn't engage with the school at all. In many ways that's more frustrating than a parent who is overly involved, although it's d different problem entirely than the one I've brought up here.

I'm not sure yet if I'll go back to teaching. I would love to, but in order to be the kind of teacher I want to be I would have to work at least 60 hours a week and with a small child and hopefully another one on the way in the not too distant future that just seems too much at the moment. Maybe when my children are older.

OH FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, I have answered the "knowing what pupils are doing" query about 400 times now, will people please read the thread before posting pointless responses!

Bramshott I think you make a very good point. I think what parents don't realise at times is the time pressure that teachers are constantly under. With 25+ little bodies to organise every morning, there just isn't time to listen to parents who might have queries or suggestions. I know at times I might have come across as brusque to parents especially in the mornings, but that's usually because I could see a child climbing on the fence outside and needed to go and get them down, or some other time-sensitive minor emergency that couldn't wait. The pull of having so much to do can make teachers come across as distracted and not interested but IME as soon as teacher starts dividing their attention over every little thing that happens that's when something goes wrong and then of course fingers are pointed. To an extent as a teacher you have to have tunnel vision, you have to focus on getting the day started and not let yourself get distracted. When you have many little voices clamouring for attention, a register to call, book logs to fill in, notes to give out, planning to get ready etc etc etc that isn't easy!

I hear what the OP says but also agree with a lot of the other comments. A lot of parents like me who went to state school in the 80s and 90s have probably been on the receiving end of poor, middling to excellent teaching, and just want to make sure that their kids get more of the good stuff.

A lot of problems that teachers end up dealing with aren't their fault, it's the curriculum, the leadership in the school testing regime, Govt policy or lack of funding etc. But I still don't think there is enough excellence across the teaching profession, standards still need to be raised and they need to be paid in line with other professionals.

ZZZZ- An educational psychologists job is to observe a child in school and recommend what help that child need to access the curriculum....

and for all we know, an EP may have recommended a special school or predominantly small group environment, and there are no local places so the child is contained in a mainstream school because it is cheaper than sending him to an out of authority indy school.

Some children's needs are well outside the normal experience. How would a teacher know that for example a diabetic child will need food if he shows signs of low glucose, or what those are.

^ presumably the school health advisor/ medical team liaise with the school re. symptoms. We are not necessarily talking about diabetes or a controllable medical condition. Usually (IME) the type of children CailínDana refers to much more complex cases, frequently behavioural difficulties + learning difficulties + home factors. I think a teacher is well placed to see if a child can cope in a mainstream school. A doctor sitting on a SEN panel talking about the educational placements of children with behaviour difficulties/ learning difficulties is often not the best person to advise where they should go to school.

A Dr advises on what is safe for that child, so for example one of my children has epilepsy, would you honestly feel you could decide weather she is safe to come to school or not?

With respect, nobody is saying teachers could decide what is safe for a child with epilepsy, and I don't think you would find many teachers who would claim otherwise. For children with high levels of challenging behaviour, not controlled by medication, where the school experience is the only form of remediation I would argue that the classteacher is well placed to know if they can cope with mainstream.

I don't think salary makes much difference in terms of calibre of teachers. Teaching is surely a vocation. People may try to carve out a teaching career because they are attracted to the benefits, but unless they have an ambition to teach, they won't last very long. You simply could not do the job unless you like children, enjoy imparting knowledge and can think on your feet. Having a 1st class degree is no guarantee you can do this. It's a different set of skills.

That's not to say that teachers do not deserve a higher salary, but simply that I think equating salary with quality is a misnomer in vocational fields.

My DC's teacher is excellent BTW.

only, MrsJoeDuffy, if that class teacher is properly trained in behavioural management, and the impact of positive and negative reinforcement cycles.

and most of them aren't.

so what they are, in fact, commenting on is their inability to manage a situation, rather than the suitability of mainstream school for any particular child.

We were not allowed to speak to the teacher at all before school at Primary. Maybe after school or make an appointment.

Flicktheswitch let me refer you to my post at 12:15. Thanks.

Yes but did you really know how your pupils were doing. Cailin?

You have very much missed zzzz's point, Cailin.

Zzzz simply said that a professional psychologist would expect to make decisions within the context of a multidisciplinary team, which of course can include the specific expertise of a teacher but recognises that many different disciplines need to be involved in coming to the types of educational decisions that have the power to change the whole course of an individual's life. It is not at all disrespecting a teacher's expertise as a teacher to suggest that they don't have all the expertise necessary to enable them to make these types of decisions across the wide range of special educational needs.

I am a professional who is involved in assessment, diagnosis and treatment of children with a broad range of SEN and I have taught in mainstream classrooms too. I wouldn't dream of suggesting that I could make a decision on where a child should or shouldn't be based on meeting them in one context simply because I am "so" expert that my opinions are "informed". I couldn't really do my job without Paediatricians, Ed Psychs, teachers and some CAMHs professionals because there are many areas in which I am not at all expert and even within my own narrow, highly specialist field - and with the benefit of quite a lot of training and experience - I frequently need to discuss things and think things through with colleagues and other professionals to ensure that I am really being objective in my decision-making.

Technically, as I am doing a specific academic piece of work involving psychological testing at the moment, I suppose I could slap the term "research psychologist" on myself. However, when I need support in understanding the students I work with, I don't call on research psychologists. I call on Clinical and Educational Psychologists who are supposed to have trained to be professional in their application of their knowledge.

I don't think salary makes much difference in terms of calibre of teachers. Teaching is surely a vocation.

With respect, I think this is the argument that has kept the salaries of female dominated careers lower than those held by men. If we call it a vocation, we can pay them nothing because they have a 'calling'.

I can't quite remember off the top of my head but England loses a ridiculously high percentage of new teachers in the first three years. Too much work for far too little pay.

I agree wholeheartedly that a first in an academic subject does not imply a wonderful teacher. However, how many of the threads on these boards highlight the poor standard of spelling, grammar and numeracy amongst the primary staff teaching your DC? I think salary has a lot to do with calibre of entrants to the teaching profession.

"so what they are, in fact, commenting on is their inability to manage a situation, rather than the suitability of mainstream school for any particular child."

Absolutely.

Silverfrog, if there is a problem with the teacher's classroom management that will be flagged up at one of their many observations/Ofsted reviews. When a teacher says a child is unable to cope at MS school what they usually mean is that given the way the classroom works at MS school (which includes reinforcement or lack thereof) the child isn't able to cope. Some children need specialised behavioural management and most MS schools are not equipped to provide that, which means the child would be better of at school that did provide it. Saying that the class isn't suitable because the school isn't suitable is surely saying the same thing?

"OH FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, I have answered the "knowing what pupils are doing" query about 400 times now, will people please read the thread before posting pointless responses!"

Is that how you spoke to the parents at your school?
No wonder they hated you!