to think some parents are totally unrealistic about how schools work?

[CailinDana]

I'm a former primary teacher (now SAHM) and I loved my job but the attitude some parents had towards me and my colleagues was one of the worst aspects of being a teacher. Despite having never taught, and being a maximum age of eleven when they were last in a primary school, some parents seem to think that they know far better than teachers how to run a school.

Some threads on MN give me flashbacks to those parents. It just makes my blood boil when parents seem to be putting everything teachers do under a microscope as though they're bound to be doing something wrong. Some parents seem to be under the impression that teachers are minor dictators, completely controlling everything in the classroom with no professional standards or supervision. Other parents believe that a teacher, one solitary adult, should be au fait with every little aspect of every child's progress and ability (eg reading books) at all times despite having at least 25 children to teach. Who do they think teachers are? Where do they get these ideas from?

I do definitely think that parents should be involved in their child's education but I have seen good, hardworking teachers ground down by overbearing parents who question their every move. Teaching is a difficult enough job without feeling like people who have no real understanding of the job are constantly monitoring you. AIBU to think that to a large extent parents should trust teachers to have their children's best interests at heart and that they should try to have realistic expectations of what teachers can actually do?

"I am not a service provider. I am a teacher. An educator. And the students are not customers. What happens in the classroom, between teachers and learners bears no relationship whatsoever to the purchase of a service. That is one if the most philistine comments I've ever read."

Education in state or private schools is a service provided to parents to help them fulfil their legal duty to educate their child. They aren't customers but they are consumers of a service.

Hi CailinDana

Sorry I haven't quite mastered the art of quoting on MN yet so I'll do it this way:

"Do you really believe that a teacher should hold the constantly changing progress levels of 25+ children in his/her head at all times?"

• Yes, the teacher should know the general level/ability of each child. My DH certainly does!

"So if you went to your child's teacher and said "how is my child doing in maths?" what would you expect the teacher to say?"

• I'd expect the teacher to tell me generally how my child was doing, e.g. good progress so far, or struggling a bit with x .... and yes, I'd be happy if you checked data and came back to me later with specifics, unless I just wanted a general update in which case a general answer would be OK. If I asked "which group is my DC in for maths" I would expect you to know the answer without checking.

I think a lot of it depends on how the question is asked,i.e. calmly and politely, or aggressively, and I do not know any parents at my DCs' school who have ever thought to try to interfere in the way a classroom is run. What I would say is that if your class size is only 25 (I know you've said 25+ but that implies that you have had classes of only 25 children) then you are very lucky. Round here, all primary schools have 30 children in each class in YR, Y1 and Y2, and 32+ from Y3 onwards.

DH has many, many highly aspirational, nosey, meddling, bossy, downright rude parents who all think they know better than him. The thing is, they all have their kids' best interests at heart (well, most of them do!). It's been said earlier in this thread, by several posters - leaving your dhildren in the care of strangers, and entrusting your kids' education to them, is a massive leap of faith. It's understandable that people get wound up.

DH taught at a school, years ago, where some of the parents were banned from attending school sport fixtures as they had assaulted the referee in a school football match because they belived that his refereeing was biased. The kids were 13 ... sigh ....

MoreBeta in what way are you qualified to monitor the delivery of education? If you mean that you care that your children are happy and progressing at school, then fair enough. If you started telling me how I should be doing my job when you have no training whatsoever, I would be less than impressed. I feel quite lucky that unlike my primary colleagues I teach something most parents don't understand!

Llanbobl - DS is only 1 so that remains to be seen :)

MrsMcEnroe what you said about progress and levels is pretty much exactly what I meant - I'd be able to say generally how a child is doing, but I would have to check data to give exact sublevels etc.

YANBU. Ime, the majority of parents are one extreme or the other.

They are either so focused on their child getting the best that they are on top of the teachers constantly expecting them spend all their time on their child, or they are so disengaged with their child's education that teachers and assistants spend double the amount if time doing the basic things that they should be doing. Like handing out drinks, or finding PE kit and plimsolls that actually fit.

All my classroom experience is in reception and infants, I was hoping it would get better as children could take more responsibility for themselves.

"Perhaps because a lot of mothers had, or still have, careers and that makes them view education in terms of service delivery .... I know I do."

Entirely agree with this, and think that it is for teachers/schools to adapt to those parental expectations!

Indeed, but I expect a level of service from Sainsbury's, doesn't mean that I expect them to provide someone to walk behind me pushing the trolley and load all the food onto the conveyor belt, does it? Parents are right to expect certain standards. The OP is talking about unrealistic expectations given that teachers deal with 30 students in their class.

Also when you receive a service you have to agree to some Terms and Conditions generally.

YANBU

I find it upsetting when I know I shouldn't take it so hard!

If the teacher is doing a good job I agree with you. However, although my dc are 13 and 17 now some examples I remember from primary school:

Temperatures hit 90 degrees and reception teachers refused to allow the children to bring in water bottles - they had to rely on the water fountains - it was too much trouble to pour water in a jug and pass round paper cups - it wasn't their job.

In the reading book "your ds read allowed beautifully today" together with the provision of incorrectly spellt words.

Insistence on magic key books being read three times before the teacher agreed they could be changed - really opened up the imagination.

Rude comments in reading records further up the school. "Please listen to your child and write in the book" when a teacher or ta had not listened to my child read for an entire half term or written any feedback. Any point writing in the book when nobody looks at it?

A Y4 teacher teaching that the x axis was vertical and the y axis horizontal.

A teacher writing in one of my dc's story books in Y1 - "they was going to the beach" - yes a teacher not a ta.

Being told by the SEN teacher when our DS was transferred to another school at the end of Y3 that I was doing the right thing because she had assessed him as g&t in reception.

All at an outstanding primary in a leafy area.

I'm afraid I expect teachers to be able to do the basics with a smile on their faces. Shall I mention the one third of children who leave primary without acquiring English and numeracy skills that will allow them to succeed at secondary school. Shall I mention the lack of specialisation after the age of 7? Shall I mention the number of times a teacher has spoken to me as though I were eight or nine? Shall I mention the obsession with telling parents what to feed their children, how to get to school, and general interferance with all things other than providing the foundation for a good education?

I'm afraid OP I think there needs to be a very substantive review of what happens in teacher training colleges and very substantial realignment amongst teachers that they are contractually engaged to provide a service and are not doing the majority of parents the most enormous favour. I'm afraid you are paid to teach children and as a parent I expect teachers to have the basic skills in relation to numeracy and literacy to be able to teach my children correctly.

I think MoreBeta had a point - good teachers are good teachers whatever you refer to them as - teachers are providing a service (one of the most important) and a good teacher will accept parents may challenge what happens in school (esp in the private sector) to be defensive about it just implies a lack of confidence in what you are delivering.

I am a teacher.

I am also a PITA parent. I am sure I am the talk of the staff room at my DCs school sometimes.

When I see something isn't 'right' then I am afraid I go and in and 'express my concerns'.

Now when I go in to speak to the teachers, they often have two of them there!

I didn't set out to be like that, it just comes out.

Ok but it works both ways.

If you want parents to stand back then don't expect nightly reading,learning of phonics,homework and a huge amount of involvement in fund raising and school life.

If you want parents involved then you get involved parents,sorry you don't get to dictate terms ie have parents involved in what you want and then to step back when you say.

The more you involve parents the more involved they will be.

I speak as a teacher who taught in highly middle class areas with parents extremely involved in their kids education but also in areas where kids struggled with completely uninterested parents who never heard their kids read.

I'll let you guess which was easier.

I agree MrsHeffley that disinterested parents are awful. It is soul destroying to be trying to push a child to succeed only to be met with indifference or actual resistance from their parents at every turn. I find that if parents are actively involved in the school, and good for helping with homework then generally they're not a PITA. It tends to be parents that turn up just to complain or write snippy notes every few months that are the worst. They hardly know anything about their child's education, yet they see fit to comment when it suits them

The examples you give, married in white, are appalling. To be fair, it doesn't help good teachers either if their colleagues are simply not up to the job. I'm interested in your theory about the realignment of teacher training though. (I'm not being sarcastic). The only way I can see to attract highly intelligent, well educated graduates into the job is to pay them more...

I agree wherearemysocka - the pay for teaching is pretty shocking considering the skill it requires. The only way to attract more highly qualified people would be to increase the pay I think. Otherwise it makes much more sense for good graduates to go into better paid careers.

But if you accept the comments I have made above and if you accept the fact that one third of primary school children do not have adequate literacy and numeracy skills at the age of 11 and consider it in the context that a foundation education has been a legal requirement since, I believe, 1860, it is not unreasonable to expect that those who are in charge of the system would have correctly identified the weaknesses by now. The most significant in my opinion is the lack of specialisation post Y2.

wherearemysocka - I wonder never dream of telling a teacher how to teach my children. I absolutely never would do that.

Indeed, the very last words I said to DS2's teacher when I saw him at Parents Evening was 'you are the teacher and I am not'. I did though discuss DS2 general progress and we discussed what his strengths and weaknesses were and what the teacher planned to do. I was very happy to leave it in his hands.

I did interven strongly at DS2's previous school where they quite simply were not teaching him enough to pass entrance exams. I did not tell them how to teach but I had to tell them what DS needed to pass entrance exams. They resisted all the way. I taught him myself in the end. That was a bad teacher and a bad Head

Like what Calin?

What are these better paid jobs for those with English,French,Geography,History degrees etc?

I think that the only thing I really dislike about some parents is the way they speak to me as if I got up that morning and thought really hard how, exactly, I could ruin their child's education that day . It is just those who are rude. There will always be PITA parents, as there will always be PITA teachers.

I am very good at managing parental expectations - I listen to their concerns and take them seriously and act upon them if I think it necessary. If I don't think it necessary then I give them a valid reason why not. I am confident enough in my own teaching to be able to take on board the opinion of a parent, even if it is something that had not occurred to me previously.

I do not consider myself a service provider though. I educate children.

Another ex teacher here.
Yes I do expect a teacher to be able to tell me the progress my child is making. I expect communication and feedback.
I m having issues with my son's teacher at present. His self esteen has taken a dive since she came and he has gone backward. I feel like crying every time I think about his school. I feel like he is not being valued.

I dont think I could sit back and just let her get on with it, Im afraid.

You are definitely not being unreasonable.
I read some of the threads started here, regarding primary education, and confess they make my eyes roll around my head and along the floor.
Some of you Mumsnetters think your child is the only one in the class!

I'm not a primary teacher and we don't start my subject until secondary so I can't comment on your last point, but I can tell you that your average teacher doesn't have a lot of say in how the system works (if only!)

Your comments seemed to be based on the lack of basic literacy and numeracy in the primary school teachers you'd encountered. If you want the quality of teacher to improve then you'll need to find some way to make the job attractive...

It's difficult to say married. All I can draw from is my experience in Ireland, where I trained as a teacher. Ireland is 7th on the "Human Development Index" while the UK is 28th link Quality of education contributes hugely to a country's placement on the index (three factors of the index are drawn from education), indicating that Ireland has higher quality education than the UK. From my direct experience there are a few reasons for this. Bear in mind some of these factors have changed hugely due to the recession but will have had an effect in previous generations.

-In Ireland, primary teaching is a sought-after profession. Teacher training degrees are very difficult to get into and only if you get very high results in school can you be accepted into a BEd (the main way teachers train in Ireland, PGCEs are less common). Thus, the quality of teachers is higher.
-Teaching salaries are much much higher in Ireland than in Britain. That has changed since the recession but for example when I qualified, I would have earned about £19000 in Britain but I would have earned 41,000 euros in Ireland. That is a huge difference and changes the calibre of people attracted to the profession.
-Teachers in Ireland are not tied to league tables and have about one tenth of the paperwork to do than UK teachers. This leaves teachers free to actually teach rather than to be constantly producing results for parents to pick at.
-Teachers in Ireland have much more freedom than teachers in the UK. They are considered professionals, like doctors, and are allowed to shape their own practice. IMO this leads to far more creativity and personal investment among teachers. In contrast I have found here that teachers are under such scrutiny that they are forced to toe a very thin line and thus creativity is actually frowned upon at times, for fear that the parents will complain.

Thus to bring the UK up in the Index I think it's time to lay off teachers, frankly, and give them space to actually teach.