to think some parents are totally unrealistic about how schools work?

[CailinDana]

I'm a former primary teacher (now SAHM) and I loved my job but the attitude some parents had towards me and my colleagues was one of the worst aspects of being a teacher. Despite having never taught, and being a maximum age of eleven when they were last in a primary school, some parents seem to think that they know far better than teachers how to run a school.

Some threads on MN give me flashbacks to those parents. It just makes my blood boil when parents seem to be putting everything teachers do under a microscope as though they're bound to be doing something wrong. Some parents seem to be under the impression that teachers are minor dictators, completely controlling everything in the classroom with no professional standards or supervision. Other parents believe that a teacher, one solitary adult, should be au fait with every little aspect of every child's progress and ability (eg reading books) at all times despite having at least 25 children to teach. Who do they think teachers are? Where do they get these ideas from?

I do definitely think that parents should be involved in their child's education but I have seen good, hardworking teachers ground down by overbearing parents who question their every move. Teaching is a difficult enough job without feeling like people who have no real understanding of the job are constantly monitoring you. AIBU to think that to a large extent parents should trust teachers to have their children's best interests at heart and that they should try to have realistic expectations of what teachers can actually do?

hi there! here is another PITA mum...................

YOUR job is to know every child in your class end of. The schools my children have gone the teachers CAN tell you everything including their shoe size. They make it priority to know. 30 children is nothing in a infant or junior school same class day in day out for a year? A teacher that doesnt know their children is not a good teacher but a teacher that has failed to make a good relationship with his or her children.

Senior school with 300+ students? Thats different. I can understand they would need a log for each child there so would not necessarily be able to answer a more indepth on the spot queston but no doubt the answer would be "I dont know but I will ring you!" I would still expect them to know my child not necessarily his entire educational statistics of the top of a hat, but his character and his preferred learning methods yes.

I wouldnt/and am not experienced in all educational subjects and so wouldnt dictate on how to teach a certain subject and never have done. BUT I am experienced in how my child best absorbs information, how he copes in learning, what he likes and dislikes about school that he may need encouragement on and any proffessional teacher should be professional and have the decency to take a parents advice onboard. If my child is failing..............then I want to know why........find the answer and put it right wether it be my child or the teacher.

Tapping? hmmmmmmmm its kicking. To a distressed child (and yes a child with behavioural issues is clearly distressed) its an offensive act. Correct way to handle the situation? If talking, raising voice slightly, coercing wont work and you believe the child to be either a danger to themselves at the time or a possible danger to others and he cant be removed then the correct option is to remove the OTHER children so you are able to concentrate on the distressed child. Common sense really.

IF that had been my child I wouldnt have gone berserk. But I would have kicked/tapped your foot every time I wanted your attention rather than the politeness of an excuse me or calling your name. I dont think you would have put up with it for very long. But then...........all I would be doing was getting your attention at the end of a busy day.

Also I find strange that you can make the opinion that the child should have been in a special school? are you a pead, psych? no a teacher who cannot make that assumption. Also if his file was soooo full of behavioural information like distressed due to noise (book report) etc then its so sad that this child has been failed by the system and should have more support other than being removed from his class.

I teach about 100 students a year (Core subject at secondary level, and no shred classes, unlike in the UK).

I would hesitate to say anything about any student's character; very presumptuous, but will always comment on behaviour, work habits and attainment.

As for preferred learning methods, if you mean learning styles, then no, I don't. They are wank. I teach my subject in a variety of ways, which is not the same thing.

Snurk, that should be "shared".:o

Should teachers be paid a pittance? Oh come off it, there are teachers in Ireland on ?69K who work minimal hours and do very limited assessment or planning, who are coasting through the system and unaccountable to anyone.

There are great teachers too, undoubtedly, but it is virtually impossible to do anything about those who are inadequate as the unions are so strong.

Resource hours are great if you have an adequately trained professional who has appropriate support and recognises the need to access appropriate training and support. However (and I say this from direct experience), it is often seen as a "soft job" within a school for the old dear who needs to be put out to pasture or the teacher who can't handle class discipline. The vast majority of teachers in the UK have primary degrees and PGCEs so comparing the entrance level for BEds is not comparing like with like. Where is the justification for saying that Irish teachers are more academically able than UK ones? The mind boggles.

I can criticise the system here too, I have intimate knowledge of both in a variety of capacities. However, it is supremely arrogant to suggest that Ireland's teachers are of a "higher calibre" based on what people had to do in the Leaving to get in. I have no doubt there are talented professionals working in Ireland, as there are in the UK too. The generalisations about quality across the board are, however, frankly nauseating and I'm
embarrassed to see such self-aggrandisement.

OP yanbu.

coff33pot I do hope you make a better fist of thoroughly reading any school paperwork before doing your PITA turn than you have here. The op nowhere said the tapped child had behaviour difficulties or SN. She explained the other boy did, the one she was trying to prevent tearing into the store room.

Worlds upside down when parents actually believe a teacher is the last person fit to judge a child's suitability for mainstream school.

Am depressed at the sheer volume of posters who also seemed to willfully miss the point op made of not being able to quote exact figures off the top of her head.

coff33pot - I answered your first point about knowing children multiple times. It turns out you and I agree on that point.

At no point did I say the boy I tapped was distressed or had behavioural problems. It would be helpful if you would read the thread before answering.

zzzz- I already stated that I was doing supply in the school I was in, and I had no control over the setup that I was working under. If it had been my class that boy would have had very different help, and I didn't agree with him being allowed to spend the day getting worked up and frustrated and then taken out of the class at the end of the day when he exploded. I am a psychologist as it happens, and one of the jobs I did before I was a teacher was to assess children for learning disabilities, so yes my opinion about the child with behavioural difficulties is informed. But even if I wasn't a psychologist, I believe a teacher does have the expertise to see whether a child can cope in mainstream education or not. The fact that you believe teachers don't have that expertise shows how much respect you have for them.

Working, your post said "which may clarify..." what may clarify?

It worries me somewhat also that some posters would have preferred me to allow the child with behavioural problems to hurt himself rather than tapping a child who was totally unbothered by it.

I've experienced good teachers and the occasional bad teacher but it has always struck me that the best teachers are the ones that are very open and welcoming to the parents of the children they teach.
Dd's current teacher is brilliant and seems to have a great relationship with both the children and the parents and at the same time all the children are thriving and no one ever has a bad word to say about her.
The very worst teacher I ever experienced didn't allow parents over the threshold and in fact blocked the windows with pictures so that she wasn't observed. Telling really that she had repeated retraining and a competency hearing (indiscreet headteacher there as well).

I wouldn't have had a problem with you tapping my DS. Cailin. he should be listening. DS1 was a great daydreamer, staring out of the window in lessons. It drove his Yr3 teacher up the wall.

Well according to some others I should have shouted at the boy, which I think is a lot ruder and more embarrassing for a child than discreetly tapping them to alert them.

Well I don't see it like that at all. I have run it past my 9 and 12 year old sons and they both agree they would rather be tapped than be shouted at in front of the whole class.

Delegate.
Tell a child who is listening to prod them.

Seriously though, it is a bad idea to touch any child if you don't know them, their family history and their current situation. Not even to put in a hair bobble or steer them through a doorway or to attract their attention.
Someone will be able to misinterpret it.
Not shout, raise voice a little and speak clearly. Although that can be celled intimidating and threatening too.
Hope your enjoying your time out of the class.

The children around him were starting to laugh at him. If I'd enlisted their help it would have only embarrassed him further. He was a lovely child but really inattentive, his ability to switch off was quite amazing. I'd called him very clearly 4 or 5 times and tapping him was an absolute last resort.

"But even if I wasn't a psychologist, I believe a teacher does have the expertise to see whether a child can cope in mainstream education or not. The fact that you believe teachers don't have that expertise shows how much respect you have for them."

That depends on the teacher's reasons for stating that your child can/cannot cope in mainstream.

My dd's headteacher suggested that dd, who has no behavioural difficulties and is gifted and talented, would be better off in a special school because of her mobility problems. The only special schools around here cater for children with severe learning difficulties.

What he actually meant, of course, was that he thought it would be too much trouble to have to keep the disabled loo open and timetable the classes so that dd's set was on bottom floor and remember to book a special minibus for outings- so he would rather somebody else had that inconvenience.

Was I supposed to trust his educational expertise?

Me, I will trust somebody's professionalism as long as they demonstrate that aspect in their work. None of the teachers in dd's junior school seemed to know anything about the laws governing disability discrimination in schools and during a period of several years of teaching a disabled child whose needs were clearly not being met, none of them made an effort to find out either. Professionalism- I don't think so.

In dd's new school otoh I am constantly struck by the professional attitude of the teachers, by their willingness to learn and engage in new problems, by their openness towards the families of their students.

When I worked as a supply teacher in my younger days I found the same thing: some colleagues were professional in their attitudes, others less so. And the general tone in a school went a long way.

But for the record, I would have had no problem with Cailin tapping my son with her foot: it doesn't seem a very heinous sin to me.

Cory - the situation with your daughter sounds absolutely awful and in that instance I would totally agree with you taking the school to task.

I am genuinley astonished at the number of teachers who insist they are not providing a service. What is it you are providing then?

CaitlinDana - not picking on you but what you said here is exactly what I would expect a doctor, lawyer, acocuntant to do and they do provide a service. A service is not merely a transaction in most cases. I think you seem to resent the idea of anything that smacks of 'commercial' or 'business'. Services, of all kinds require a lot of skill to deliver - including teaching!

"People in a shop are delivering a service, one that can be clearly defined. A service is merely a transaction and once a person has delivered their required service they can say they've done their job and wash their hands of everything. That notion paints a picture of a teacher with a fixed objective, just doling out information. How utterly weird. Teaching isn't a service, it's a relationship, constantly evolving. A good teacher won't just "deliver" their words of wisdom and think their job is done, they'll constantly update their approach, they'll interact with the class, work off their ideas, adapt their teaching to suit their interests and abilities. Seeing it as a service implies it is just something you carry out with no skill, and reveals a lot about what people actually think of teachers IMO."

TYPO: CailinDana

Try reading some of the earlier threads, MoreBeta, which make clear the difference in the relationship between teacher and learner and supplier and customer.

And yes, most, if not all teachers resent the diminishing of the pupil/teacher relationship into a commercial transaction. Successive governments have attempted to suborn parents into imagining they've bought an education for this child, when if anything has been bought, it's the opportunity for a child to learn. That opportunity has to be taken, an effort on the part of the pupil, has to be made.

I have just removed my DD aged 5 from a mainstream school where the teacher and HT stated that if she didn't "improve" in 6 weeks she would have to leave. My DD has ADHD and Dyspraxia and I pointed out that a child cannot "improve" their disability we can only improve how we manage her behaviour. I have no problems with her at home and was keen to share my advice on what works best for us as we have had to find out over 5 years and now have a happy and relaxed time of it but the teacher was unwilling to listen and resented me trying to become involved afterall What the hell do I know I am only a mother who has had to train myself on SEN. The teacher also ignored the advice of the education's behavioural advice unit and I requested that they request outreach support but they refused. This illustrates the sheer arrogance of some teaching professionals they do not know everything and it is a sign of a true professional who seeks to gain advice and knowledge from others including the parent.
DD is now in another school doing fantastically well and the difference the teacher has a fantastic relationship with the parents asks for advice when she needs it and so therefore I trust and respect her as does my DD.

YABU - sorry if I ask "How is Johnny doing in Maths" I want to know is he doing: a) alright, b) struggling c) brilliantly or if we've talked before d) improving or e) no improving. I don't want to know the levels and sub-levels, which are confusing and only meaningful if you have the criteria (and I've done a PGCE).

Also if you can't keep that info on 25-30 kids in a primary class, maybe you need to visit a secondary where you teach 300+ student a week.

But on the other hand I'm not the kind of parent who thinks my kid is a genius against all evidence.
I do think your attitude to teachers may change when you sit the other side of the desk, just wait until one talks about another pupil in the class with the same first name (even though you have an appointment). Also you may see colleagues are not always as professional as yo thought from the Mother's eye view.

MoreBeta: I don't think doctors or lawyers provide a service either. I think they are professionals who use their judgement in different situations to provide the best outcome for their patients/clients. The notion of providing a service, as echt says, reduces the very complex teaching relationship to a simple transaction and removes the human element entirely. As a teacher you are in the same room with the same children 6 hours a day 5 days week. You get to know who they are, what they think and feel. To put that in the same box as someone who supplies goods to anonymous customers is really bizarre IMO.

Ok I've already said exactly what you've said - I can always tell a parent how their child is doing generally but I won't know sublevels etc off the top of my head. Absolutely no one has said a teacher won't know anything about a child, that would be impossible frankly.

Sorry that last post was directed at mummytime

Do you think you will return to teaching. Cailin?