to think some parents are totally unrealistic about how schools work?

[CailinDana]

I'm a former primary teacher (now SAHM) and I loved my job but the attitude some parents had towards me and my colleagues was one of the worst aspects of being a teacher. Despite having never taught, and being a maximum age of eleven when they were last in a primary school, some parents seem to think that they know far better than teachers how to run a school.

Some threads on MN give me flashbacks to those parents. It just makes my blood boil when parents seem to be putting everything teachers do under a microscope as though they're bound to be doing something wrong. Some parents seem to be under the impression that teachers are minor dictators, completely controlling everything in the classroom with no professional standards or supervision. Other parents believe that a teacher, one solitary adult, should be au fait with every little aspect of every child's progress and ability (eg reading books) at all times despite having at least 25 children to teach. Who do they think teachers are? Where do they get these ideas from?

I do definitely think that parents should be involved in their child's education but I have seen good, hardworking teachers ground down by overbearing parents who question their every move. Teaching is a difficult enough job without feeling like people who have no real understanding of the job are constantly monitoring you. AIBU to think that to a large extent parents should trust teachers to have their children's best interests at heart and that they should try to have realistic expectations of what teachers can actually do?

silverfrog - agree that BESD training is non-existent.

However, I do see situations that cannot be managed in a mainstream environment.

Working I'm a bit confused, I'm not sure if you're getting my posts mixed up with someone else. I never said a teacher should be solely responsible for deciding whether a child should or shouldn't be in MS school. All I said was in my opinion the child I taught should have been. My opinion was supported by the multiple assessments and behavioural interventions the child had had down through the years.

Hah Northern, way to avoid the point!

cailin, I know some children need specialised behaviour management. my dd is one of them. not, however because she was so disruptive or violent or challenging. but she needs it nonetheless.

it could, however be easily delivered within a mainstream classroom, if the teacher was willing to try it. very easily actually, given she would have a full time dedicated and trained 1:1 as well.

but ultimately, dd1 cannot be in mainstream because the majority of teachers do not want her there -they do not want to be challenged or stretched, and they do not want to have to include her.

their loss, not hers.

Frankly, I am astonished that teachers don't see themselves as providing a service. I am coming from such a different place on this issue that it is difficult to even have a conversation about it.

Its almost like some people on this thread think 'service' is a dirty word. It reminds me of a rather grand old lady who regarded 'trade' as something that should avoided but that being a civil servant or university lecturer or teacher as acceptable because it didnt involve money. She made an exception with Shell (the oil company) as iit was formed during the heyday of the British Empire and was almost a part of the Foreign Office.

CailinDana, children have a right to education in the least restrictive and most inclusive environment which means that where schools lack the relevant expertise to deal with more complex and challenging situations, there needs to be careful consideration of the wide range of adjustments that can be made before anyone makes a decision on where they are best placed.

I also think it is quite clear from Silverfrog and zzzz's posts that they have quite a bit of knowledge in this area and are probably well acquainted with the fact that some children have complex needs regarding specialised management.

Teachers get a very good salary.

Also in no other profession do you go to the top of the pay bscale for just turning up for work ie teachers salary goes up every year from graduation regardless of performance.

Oh by the way Northern I never said parents hated me, in fact no parent ever hated me in all the years I taught.

Teachers do not get a very good salary for the amount of work expected of the role (IMHO).

And other professions do have a year on year increase (mine does anyway! :))

I totally agree working.

Cailin, re: "Working I'm a bit confused, I'm not sure if you're getting my posts mixed up with someone else. I never said a teacher should be solely responsible for deciding whether a child should or shouldn't be in MS school. All I said was in my opinion the child I taught should have been. My opinion was supported by the multiple assessments and behavioural interventions the child had had down through the years."

I think you implied it quite heavily actually, not specifically in relation to this child (who you are drip-feeding about throughout this thread and should probably move on from). You suggested that zzzz didn't value teacher's expertise because she suggested that a team of people might need to be involved in these types of decisions.

Pay rises where I used to work (finance) used to be performance related. But IMO teachers shouldn't be. Some children are basically unteachable.

r eally, sparkling? unteachable? in any way, by anyone?

how can you tell which children are unteachable?

As a research psychologist I earned about £3000 a year more than I did as a teacher, and got a year on year increase regardless of performance. I did about 35 hours a week as researcher as opposed to 60 hours a week as a teacher. Overall the teaching pay was ridiculously poor. However, I much preferred being a teacher and got much more satisfaction out of it than research, and it's a shame that it's not compatible with my life at the moment. That said I also enjoy being a SAHM so I'm going to stick at that for the moment :)

Teachers salary jumps up a huge amount every year after graduation.Regardless of any shite performance.

No other professions do not go up year on year.Those that do are often barely in line with inflation.

Teachers get 12 weeks holiday a year,PPA cover(in my dc's school an afternoon a week) and children leave at 3.30.

They get a good deal.

Oh, sorry if I implied that working, I didn't mean that. I would never think a child should be moved from MS education totally based on a teacher's say-so. I would expect a team, like the one you describe to assess the situation and make changes to allow the child to stay in MS education if at all possible, and if that was what the parents and child wanted.

In my experience when DS were at primary, the children with SN got a lot of help and support and made progress. Some of the children in the class were more than capable but didn't want to learn and were disruptive and took up a lot of the teacher's time. And yet their parents thought they were gifted and it was the teachers fault.

MrsJoeDuffy - fair point.

What I was getting at was that you might get a lot more people attracted to teaching if you increase the salary, but that doesn't mean they'll make good teachers or last the distance.

However, I totally agree with you that, in comparison to other professions, teaching is woefully underpaid, and a big part of that IMO is because teaching (certainly at primary school level) has become increasingly female dominated, and female dominated professions are nearly always paid less. Teaching is not the only profession where status and salary used to be higher and has noticeably decreased as more and more women enter it. However, I think lesser female salaries are a symptom of women's lesser status rather than the cause of it (though I'd concede that it could be a bit chicken and egg).

I think perhaps the solution needs to be two-fold. Teaching needs to have its status raised, and that can only be done in part by increasing the salary.

If you compare teaching to, say nursing or law, the qualifications required take a lot longer to learn (compared to a PCGE, though not to a BEd) and the entrance level is set higher. If salary is going to be increased, so too should the standard/status of the course required to earn it. Most teachers are good and would pass it anyway, but the bad teachers are those I think would struggle to pass a more rigorous course if introduced.

FWIW, I havent had a pay rise (not even one to keep up with inflation) for 3 years.

sparkling 'capable but didn't want to learn' is very differetn from 'unteachable'

have you really come across children you would deem 'unteachable'?

'For children with high levels of challenging behaviour, not controlled by medication, where the school experience is the only form of remediation I would argue that the classteacher is well placed to know if they can cope with mainstream'

What an absolutely outrageous assumption!

Teachers salary jumps up a huge amount every year after graduation.Regardless of any shite performance.

It jumps about £1000 per year if memory serves me. Your kids might leave at 3.30 but the teachers don't.

Maybe they would be teachable with a one-to-one all day with a teacher. But with 29 others to sort out that isn't going to happen.

Starlight, that's been my experience in this field. Lots of kids have a statement of SEN for behaviour, where the teacher is somehow magically expected to remedy the child's behaviour. I think the classteacher is well placed to judge.

so you are saying you have come across children who are 'unteachable'?

blimey.
you don't teach at my dd's old school, do you? that is the ony place where I have been asked ot accept that dd1 would not learn anything at all (an assumption made purely because this teacher was unable to teach dd1 - which does not mean she is unteachable, as her successive schooling has shown)

Blardy hell. When did teachers get so wet!? Pushy parents are part and parcel with the job, Didn't anyone warn you about this? My son is four years old will spend most of his young life in a classroom ofcourse I want to be involved as much as I can.