to think some parents are totally unrealistic about how schools work?

[CailinDana]

I'm a former primary teacher (now SAHM) and I loved my job but the attitude some parents had towards me and my colleagues was one of the worst aspects of being a teacher. Despite having never taught, and being a maximum age of eleven when they were last in a primary school, some parents seem to think that they know far better than teachers how to run a school.

Some threads on MN give me flashbacks to those parents. It just makes my blood boil when parents seem to be putting everything teachers do under a microscope as though they're bound to be doing something wrong. Some parents seem to be under the impression that teachers are minor dictators, completely controlling everything in the classroom with no professional standards or supervision. Other parents believe that a teacher, one solitary adult, should be au fait with every little aspect of every child's progress and ability (eg reading books) at all times despite having at least 25 children to teach. Who do they think teachers are? Where do they get these ideas from?

I do definitely think that parents should be involved in their child's education but I have seen good, hardworking teachers ground down by overbearing parents who question their every move. Teaching is a difficult enough job without feeling like people who have no real understanding of the job are constantly monitoring you. AIBU to think that to a large extent parents should trust teachers to have their children's best interests at heart and that they should try to have realistic expectations of what teachers can actually do?

Maybe it is arrogance, possibly insecurity because they are expected to deliver without having sufficient knowledge, training and resources.
An example from one of ds's good teachers she approached me because she couldn't get ds to sit at a different table. She'd done the usual stuff incentives and rewards, she'd done the social story, his TA moved and the others on the table were ones ds tolerated but ds was having none of it and the minute her back was turned he was back in his usual place.
She asked me if I knew what else she could try. I went in swapped his chair on the old table with an identical one on the table that she wanted him to sit at and swapped the identical pots of pencils. They were his points of reference, she reported that that day he stayed where she wanted him and he never tried to move back again.
She was a good teacher because she considered me a source of information and was more than happy to take my experience on board.
She would have been fighting an uphill battle to try and get ds to move wasting a huge amount of time and energy asking me solved it in seconds.

The thing is, insanity, no matter who is involved in developing an IEP, the teacher is the one who has to implement it. If others in the IEP meeting are suggesting things that will just not fit with the classroom situation it's up to the teacher to say that. Although in my experience a lot of teacher are forced to accept totally unworkable IEP conditions which they can never meet. This of course leads to animosity between parents and teachers.

i think teachers understand of what is expected of them (by the education system) is very different than what parents expect of them and it is this gap that causes the problems.

Yes but lots of teachers write IEPs that are ineffective because they aren't SMART so are a waste of time anyway.
Our IEP meetings are a joint effort, we generally agree what wants tackling next, we all throw ideas into the pot and of course I consider whether the teacher's suggestions fit with dd's style of learning but I also consider what her teacher can reasonably be expected to deliver as well.
As dd's teacher has got to know dd better (2nd year in her class) then she is less likely to suggest methods that won't work anyway so there isn't much disagreement between us and because I trust her to deliver then I don't feel the need to be on her case.
We have a mutual respect and it works brilliantly

when you say "lots of teachers write IEPs that are ineffective" what sort of percentage do you mean & do you mean in your experience or from research?

Going strictly by your title thread, YANBU, but why are you still so worked up about it, when you're not intending to teach for a long time, if at all?
It saddens me when I hear the way some parents in my DS's school moan and complain about teachers/the school. But the other side of the coin is that the school needs to improve its communication with parents and not make us feel as if we're being kept at arms length. Parents and staff really need to find ways to get along better in most schools, so we can truly work in partnership and thus meet our children's needs in the best way we can.

I don't think I have unreasonable expectations, my only expectation is that my children are not further disadvantaged than they already are by the autism by a teacher's insensitivity, lack of understanding or a reluctance to take on board advice offered elsewhere. My children have quantified specified statements (I have battled the LA at considerable expense to myself to get them), the LA fully funds the support on those statements so use the support appropriately using the statement as a working document to meet my children's needs and I'm happy at that.

Well put it this way, - I ensured I got a statement for ds before he ever got into any educational establishment because I knew if I didn't I would have lost my chance until late Primary.

In terms of teachers involvement and comments in the SA process. They are 'supposed' to have equal weighting to the parent's. They, along with the parents, are kind of the stakeholders and not involving them in something they have to support and deliver would be crazy.

I don't think insanity was talking about 'what' was in the IEP, I think she was talking about how it was written. I have been through 3 schools now and as ds' statement specifies a new IEP every half term, quite a number of IEPs.

I have yet to see one, written by a teacher, that is SMART.

have you asked them for a SMART statement?

Oh no research just from my experience, I've had some laughable ones over the years. It's more complicated because my children are academically able so don't need any academic targets which I think teachers are more confident at writing and dd has no behavioural difficulties either so the flow charts that teachers can access to write IEPs don't work either getting targets that are relevant to dd using strategies that work needs creativity and not all teachers have that.

have to agree with insanity and Starlight on the IEP front. until we got to where we are now with dd1 (and let's face it, her IEPs are more of an individual curriculum than an IEP - whch is possible due to the style of teaching and type of school she is at) I had not seen a SMART IEP written by a teacher. they were all the opposite of SMART, tbh - wooly, vague, unmeasurable, no timeline etc. and again, I went through a new IEP each half term (none of which were drawn up with parental input, either).

Absolutely I've asked for a SMART statement. But SMART statements don't come without tribunals ime, and sometimes not even then.

agree again, Starlight. dd1's last non-ABA school refused to amend her IEP when I asked for the targets to be made SMART (each time) - they said I had no rights over what went into the IEP. I guess that is one point of view, but it just left me wondering why they would not allow SMART targets.

i will mention to DP that his school should make sure SEN stuff is SMART.

And some teachers can quote exactly what SMART is and then hand you an IEP that is nothing of the sort It's easily sorted though if as the code of practise recommends they are written in conjunction with parents because I can write a mean IEP

i thnk there may be a reason why they dont let parents write the IEP how are they going to be able to spend the SEN budget on a new flower bed if its been fully spent!?!

And maybe there is the answer as to why teacher's don't like parents to be too involved

Thank you Tilly. However I'm not sure how helpful that would be. The waffling down of statements in recent years is down to LA's trying to keep budgets down.

I can give an example:

In my ds' statement it said:

'DS to receive up to 30 sessions of approximately 60 minutes duration of direct and indirect Speech and Language Therapy as appropriate.'

The tribunal changed this to:

'DS to receive 30 sessions of Speech and Language Therapy of 60 minutes duration delivered directly by a Speech and Language Therapist with post graduate training in ASD and a member of the Health Professionals Council, to be observed by a TA who will implement the strategies in blocks of 30 minutes. There will be no less than 5 sessions of direct Speech and Language Therapy per half term.

Now, the difference between the two statements is that the first one can be delivered without ds ever having set eyes on a SALT and by the teacher just 'saying' that SALT strategies happen in her classroom. The second one has recorded sessions that monitor progress.

I would have liked the statement to further say that the TA would keep data as directed by the SALT but the HT argued in the tribunal strongly that keeping data would distract from time spent with ds.

My argument of course was that keeping data would allow the TA to ensure that her time spend with DS was more effective, but I lost.

I gave my ds' preschool (fair enough, it WAS preschool) a perfectly constructed prewritten SMART IEP and they read it politely and informed me that 'they were going to have to ammend it to make it something called SMART' as they rolled their eyes at the unnecessary beaurocracy and paperwork.

I was too young in the tooth to do anything but give a little laugh and roll my eyes along with them in order to maintain the relationship.

I would never do that now, although I would be polite.

On my journey to this stance though I had a similar experience at Nursery, where I handed them my draft IEP for them to declare that it wasn't SMART because it didn't have numbers in the provision bit. Erm, the 'numbers' if needed, need to be in the outcome bit.

HTs do lots of juggling...sorry...

on a related but different note. a friend's daughter was silent when she started school. the school put her in a language support group. friend spoke with DP, he said it sounded like a good model, intervention at the earliest opportuntity, specialists etc. the school were very 'its just a precaution, to help her start talking at school as soon as possible so she doesnt misout'. friend took major umbridge that they were labelling her child...

Yes, but that's understandable too, Tilly. People often react in shock and anger if someone suggests their child has a problem, denying the problem is a natural stage for many parents whose children require additional support (for whatever reason). I've had parents react very strongly to the suggestion that we make a referral to a Paediatrician, because it seems very serious and it can be quite distressing. It just goes with the territory, it's a very typical human reaction to unwanted news, beyond reason. Teachers or other professionals shouldn't take it even vaguely personally. I have a friend who is an A and E doctor who says that often when you break bad news to people they become very verbally abusive and his view is that he just lets them get it out. They're not really angry with him, but with the situation. There are many human emotions involved in these situations, there's no straightforward way of dealing with it that will apply to everyone in every situation. That's why teaching needs to be a professional role. If it were paint-by-numbers, it would be unskilled.

i agree with you - it is v difficult. she is very clever & well educated but did not want any 'interferance' and yet other parents are despriate for more assistance.

very good tilly that the school thought in advance for the child and your friend. And this is where teacher/parent relationships are very important along with the understanding that sometimes the parent is going to be snappy and strained :)

No parent wants their child to have any issues whatsoever. Sadly a lot of issues with autism etc only become clear once a child starts to mix in a class with peers and so the parent can be totally unaware till this point that there is anything wrong.

For some there is a denial phase before acceptance. Some parents know but are not ready to discuss hoping their DC will just blend in eventually. Some parents have family that refuse to address their DC have issues and so they have no back up or support and have been forced to hide things or be outed. Real life ignorance from joe public puts enormous stress on parents and you certainly start to find out who your friends are. SOME teachers are also of the mind to point out an issue and then come out with "is everything alright at home?" (blame home life senario) which unfortunately is the first idea that comes to a lot of teachers minds with a child with challenging behaviour. Which in turn causes friction between parent and school as they feel a cloud of doubt over their heads.

So sometimes, when a parent approaches with a question it is for reasurance and support.

coff33pot, the teacher is bound to ask is everything is all right at home; it's called taking in the whole picture. Home is where children spend most of their time, so it's always significant. It is not about blame.