to think some parents are totally unrealistic about how schools work?

[CailinDana]

I'm a former primary teacher (now SAHM) and I loved my job but the attitude some parents had towards me and my colleagues was one of the worst aspects of being a teacher. Despite having never taught, and being a maximum age of eleven when they were last in a primary school, some parents seem to think that they know far better than teachers how to run a school.

Some threads on MN give me flashbacks to those parents. It just makes my blood boil when parents seem to be putting everything teachers do under a microscope as though they're bound to be doing something wrong. Some parents seem to be under the impression that teachers are minor dictators, completely controlling everything in the classroom with no professional standards or supervision. Other parents believe that a teacher, one solitary adult, should be au fait with every little aspect of every child's progress and ability (eg reading books) at all times despite having at least 25 children to teach. Who do they think teachers are? Where do they get these ideas from?

I do definitely think that parents should be involved in their child's education but I have seen good, hardworking teachers ground down by overbearing parents who question their every move. Teaching is a difficult enough job without feeling like people who have no real understanding of the job are constantly monitoring you. AIBU to think that to a large extent parents should trust teachers to have their children's best interests at heart and that they should try to have realistic expectations of what teachers can actually do?

I don't see what's accusatory about monitoring. As a teacher in HE I am constantly monitored:

my students fill in evaluation forms at the end of every semester, evaluating not only every aspect of the course but me personally as the teacher (and if there are several teachers on the same course I get to see myself compared to colleagues on a 1-5 scale); the results of these evaluations are then communicated to my department and used if I apply for promotion

students are encouraged to challenge and question everything I say

my teaching is also peer reviewed by my colleagues and the results are inspected by external examiners

to keep my job I have to do research which is evaluated by peer review before it is publised and then reviewed in scholarly journals by other academics

as Morebeta says, surely most jobs involve a measure of monitoring? But teachers on MN often seem to make such a fuss about it- I don't see why.

Francagoestohollywood Tue 10-Jan-12 22:23:44
"Exactly, you are monitored by your boss and colleagues, Morebeta."

But I am monitored by the students.

I get monitored in my job. People ask questions of me, ask for answers for certain decisions I have taken etc. Why should teachers be any different? I dont believe that because someone is a teacher, I shouldn't ask questions/be involved etc....I'm not a fan of blind faith.....if I were I wouldn't have insisted that my friend seek a second opinion when she was convinced something was wrong and her doctor said there was nothing to worry about. By the time she got a second opinion it was too late.

Cory you quoted me :"Despite having never taught, and being a maximum age of eleven when they were last in a primary school, some parents seem to think that they know far better than teachers how to run a school."
As my quote clearly states I'm talking about people who have never taught. That is not an assumption, that is something I know from talking to parents directly. I honestly don't mind a parent discussing a subject with me, or even passing on ideas to me. What I do object to is a parent dictating things to me.

MoreBeta - you mention your bosses monitoring you and you monitoring your subordinates. Do you consider yourself to be the boss of your children's teachers? It's clear that you don't realise just how much teachers are monitored. In my last school I and every other teacher had weekly unannounced observations from the headteacher. Then every half term we had a formal, planned observation, with a second observation before the end of term if the first one wasn't up to scratch. On top of that we had to produce weekly data on each of our children, and collate that data half termly and termly. We had two weekly after school meetings where books were monitored and teaching issues were discussed. Planning and assessment were done as a year group one afternoon a week, so all that was peer monitored on a constant basis. I really don't understand where parents get the idea that teachers just go on their merry way and suit themselves. I've had a few other jobs besides teaching, two of them in top universities and none of them was monitored nearly as closely as teaching was.

I don't know where the idea that a teacher might not know things about their children came from either, I think something I said in a previous post might have been picked up wrongly. There is no possible way a teacher could know nothing about a child in their class - to do that they'd have to close their eyes and ears every single day. Not going to happen, obviously. Every single teacher in the country will be able to tell you everything relevant about the children in their class at this stage of the year. You can't spend 6 hours a day every day in a room with a child and not know pretty much everything relevant about them.

Raffle - I said constantly monitoring you. I am all in favour of parents being involved, in fact co operative, friendly involvement by parents is a godsend, what I object to is confrontational, judgemental involvement.

I find the idea that teachers are "delivering a service" utterly bizzare. People in a shop are delivering a service, one that can be clearly defined. A service is merely a transaction and once a person has delivered their required service they can say they've done their job and wash their hands of everything. That notion paints a picture of a teacher with a fixed objective, just doling out information. How utterly weird. Teaching isn't a service, it's a relationship, constantly evolving. A good teacher won't just "deliver" their words of wisdom and think their job is done, they'll constantly update their approach, they'll interact with the class, work off their ideas, adapt their teaching to suit their interests and abilities. Seeing it as a service implies it is just something you carry out with no skill, and reveals a lot about what people actually think of teachers IMO.

"I compare it with my experience of the NHS - when I was diagnosed with my condition the first thing I did was research it so that I could ask informed questions. I wouldn't have automatically assumed that I knew more than the doctors and nurses who had treated many people before me with the same problem."

Then you presumably had the fortune to have a condition that is seen frequently: none of the doctors who treated dd for the first 5 years had any experience of her condition and it is not one that is part of medical training.

This made our interviews rather difficult: I had the knowledge and the references to the medical literature but was afraid to communicate it in case I got taken for an arrogant over-involved Munchausen-by-proxy parent, they had the general experience of being doctors but knew nothing of the condition and because of their status could not really take information from me; their assumption had to be that because I was a patient (or to be exact, the mother of a patient) I could not possibly understand medical literature and Latin words.

Cory imagine if the parents of one of your students came along one day and said "I see you're teaching such and such on your course. Well I did your subject in 1991 when I was at university and I think you should teach it like this..." how would you react? Would you think, "Oh that's great I really needed this woman's help to do my job"?? I doubt it.

As I have said before on this thread, I am confident in my teaching abilities and am willing to take suggestions from all and sundry. I find the term 'monitoring' as used by some posters on Mumsnet to mean questioning and criticising everything without necessarily knowing the full story - something I (and most teachers) have unfortunately been subject to in my career.

I would assume that your peers and colleagues are professionals who can give you useful and informed advice. Your students would also be able to look at things objectively as they are more mature. There's a big difference between that and a parent storming into school because of something little Jonny said happened at breaktime. I'm presuming your students don't get their mums to call up and accuse you of being a bully because you gave an essay a poor grade.

Interesting original post

My mum (former lecturer at an FE college) agrees with you and goes on and on about how parents have too much say, involvement etc.

Whereas I am an actively involved parent (sorry PITA). I am always polite, respectful, say thank you. But I do feel strongly that if my summerborn DS is forced to be in school too young (against my absolute best judgment), struggles, has issues on many matters, is totally supported for literacy numeracy behaviour etc and I am expected by the school to fully support him at home, then I will be at school asking questions and wanting strong communication from the school.

I should say that after 2 years of this, my respect for the teaching staff, head, TAs and the office is enormous. I sing their praises to everyone but I am not sure that I would ever qualify as favourite parent of the year

Parents might have experienced education until they left school, but many teachers have NEVER left school.

And pedagogy is barely an aspect of teacher training any more, nor is evidence-based practice.

And teacher training colleges of the last two decades have been tasked with pushing out teachers asap with low aspirations for their intake level and strict targets on their pass rates. Not a way to guarantee quality, although I don't doubt that there is some.

And schools are monitored by Ofsted and LA's who themselves are not monitored or held to account.

And the 30 children per class.............well I put it to you teachers......does anyone know the basis for that?

I know perfectly well that HE teachers are evaluated by their students. It seems fair.

As I said earlier on, I am not advocating blind acceptance of what the school delivers. But - as a parent who is very involved with my dc's school (not in the UK) - I find that there are levels of parental interfering that aren't acceptable. And that no one else in a different job would accept.

But that's my opinion.

CailinDana Tue 10-Jan-12 22:36:49

"MoreBeta - you mention your bosses monitoring you and you monitoring your subordinates. Do you consider yourself to be the boss of your children's teachers?"

My students are not my bosses, but if I get things wrong I jolly well hope they will pull me up on it. Just because getting things right matters.

Have never had the nerve to do the same to dc's teachers though: not even the one with the ghastly French accent (I had to put in hours to eradicate her pronunciation in dd's French) or the history teacher with the peculiar ideas of Medieval society. Because I know school teachers get upset about being corrected in a way that I don't think HE teachers do.

But it is very depressing when your child needs extra tuition just to take away what the school has put in.

Morebeta. The context of teachers feeling monitored unduly cannot be divorced from the historical context of back-to-back initiatives, rarely, evaluated for worth; being treated as a political football; held to account for so many of society's ills; being told how to teach right down to the minutiae of every lesson, every day, each term, all year, every year; constant media damning of their work, etc.etc.

Also, don't forget that the students HAVE to be there, it is not a consensual relationship, unlike the relationships you have with those you deal with. The dynamics are quite different, with different responsibilities.

In fact, I don't know why I am arguing the case I am: I've never had the courage of my convictions when it came to dcs' teachers.

And I agree that teachers aren't delivering a service.

'Cory imagine if the parents of one of your students came along one day and said "I see you're teaching such and such on your course. Well I did your subject in 1991 when I was at university and I think you should teach it like this..." how would you react? Would you think, "Oh that's great I really needed this woman's help to do my job"?? I doubt it'

I know how I would react. I would ask for proof that their way was better than my way, their intended outcome from teaching it differently and evidence that it was the way they taught that led to a better outcome.

If they could do that then I would change my practice immediately.

I think there could be better clarity from schools as to what is actually happening to our precious children whilst in their care. I think there should be a firm communication about what the school's duties are and what the parents are expected to do. There should be mutual respect.

There is a flip side. I don't appreciate getting the curly finger from a teacher in the the playground, I don't appreciate being treated like I don't matter or that I can't possibly have a point before I've even made it (and I rarely go into the class regarding my child, yet help out often, the one time I couldn't I was told to sort out my priorities!! pmsl stupid bitch)

YANBU CailinDana but there's two very valid sides. In general, most teachers seem alright, as do most parents, but the state could make the transition a little clearer and more respectful.

Cory - sometimes my older students have told me I am going too fast in a lesson or that they need me to go over something again. I would always listen to that feedback and follow it.

We are talking about PARENTAL involvement. We are talking about people who are never in the classroom. Not students.

CailinDana Tue 10-Jan-12 22:39:38
"Cory imagine if the parents of one of your students came along one day and said "I see you're teaching such and such on your course. Well I did your subject in 1991 when I was at university and I think you should teach it like this..." how would you react? Would you think, "Oh that's great I really needed this woman's help to do my job"?? I doubt it."

Well obviously I wouldn't expect parents to have that degree of involvement in the education of their adult children because I would hardly think that fair on their offspring, but if a former student came to me and wanted to argue why my subject should be taught as it was in 1991 then I would find that discussion worth having. I am not proud.

But I do admit that I do not apply the same principles to my dcs' teachers: they wouldn't like it and that makes a difference.

Cory, there is also another thing: often primary or secondary school teachers get "corrected" in ways a HE teacher would never be.

Starlight, what job do you do, out of interest?

Kind of what Franca said really. The happy middle ground between pushiness and blind faith. Of course question certain things... especially if teachers are actually illiterate (am thinking of the other thread) or use incorrect grammar, absolutely they should be pulled up on it.
Re 30 in a class, hasn't it always been like that except in the private sector? I genuinely can't remember!

I've never understood that concept that there's something wrong with teachers going straight into teacher training after university (as it happens I did work 'in the real world' for a while - and much prefer teaching). My boyfriend left uni and started work in IT. He's only ever worked in IT. No-one says he's worse at his job because he didn't do something else first.

(By the way, I like it when my students try to correct me, I enjoy it when they challenge things and ask why. Most of the time I'm right. Except this morning when I wrote December on the board. Oops.)

Cory - again I agree with you that students should be listened to as they are in the classroom and they understand the dynamics of what's going on. What I object to is parents, who don't understand the day to day running of the classroom at all, criticising teachers for things they have no real knowledge of.

I do sympathise with your post OP, but on the other hand I do think that many schools forget that they are providing children with an education on behalf of the parents, and those parents have every right to be concerned about the outcomes. Far too many schools exist in their own little bubble.

And if anyone comes back to say I'm wrong and the primary stakeholder in my child's education is in fact the State - as the State would like to think - I will be withdrawing him from school forthwith.

I'm a SAHM.