to think some parents are totally unrealistic about how schools work?

[CailinDana]

I'm a former primary teacher (now SAHM) and I loved my job but the attitude some parents had towards me and my colleagues was one of the worst aspects of being a teacher. Despite having never taught, and being a maximum age of eleven when they were last in a primary school, some parents seem to think that they know far better than teachers how to run a school.

Some threads on MN give me flashbacks to those parents. It just makes my blood boil when parents seem to be putting everything teachers do under a microscope as though they're bound to be doing something wrong. Some parents seem to be under the impression that teachers are minor dictators, completely controlling everything in the classroom with no professional standards or supervision. Other parents believe that a teacher, one solitary adult, should be au fait with every little aspect of every child's progress and ability (eg reading books) at all times despite having at least 25 children to teach. Who do they think teachers are? Where do they get these ideas from?

I do definitely think that parents should be involved in their child's education but I have seen good, hardworking teachers ground down by overbearing parents who question their every move. Teaching is a difficult enough job without feeling like people who have no real understanding of the job are constantly monitoring you. AIBU to think that to a large extent parents should trust teachers to have their children's best interests at heart and that they should try to have realistic expectations of what teachers can actually do?

I think everyone can agree there are good, bad and indifferent teachers and that parents come in similar categories. But if the LA controlled system imposes 'too much' accountability as the OP sees it then maybe setting up a free school which makes it clear to parents what their role will be is the answer - at least for the OP. But would it attract many entrants ? I agree that angry visits and angry notes etc are not acceptable or helpful and must be very unlikely to ever promote the child's cause as the teacher will naturally resent the tone of the comments even if the comments themselves are true.

I agree with zzzzz.

Although this thread has provided fabulous reinforcement of my decision to home educate my children (especially in the case of my disabled child), I feel achingly depressed for those children with SEN who are stuck in the system. Poor kids, they don't have a hope in hell :(

MrsHeffley I'm not sure who you're responding to, because I agreed with your previous post.

I wouldn't like to think that any teacher felt that they were the only source of remediation for my child. After all my ds is in school 33 hours per week so the majority of the remediation is done by me at home considering I'm lucky if he sleeps twenty hours per week.
The best teachers in my experience have been the teachers who valued my input as the expert on my child.
I have striven to be friendly, respectful, suggestive rather than demanding and forgiving when things have gone wrong but sometimes when teachers aren't(possibly?) confident of their abilities then maybe they resent my knowledge and experience.
It was always the teachers who struggled with ds who resented my input and the most successful ones who worked closely in partnership with me.
It was well known that the behaviour ds displayed was directly linked to the teacher teaching him, that's why to support my request for an independent placement ds was observed in a class led by the useless teacher rather than the one who had him eating out of the palm of her hand

"And pedagogy is barely an aspect of teacher training any more, nor is evidence-based practice. "

HUH???!!! Teaching is ALL about pedagogy and 'evidence based practice' as is a PGCE... have you trained as a teacher recently?

DP is a very experienced teacher now, head. he spents quite a lot of time dealing with parents:

1. definitely agree with posters who said check your facts before jumping in, 'defending' your child.

1. you are not going to know about other issues being dealt with in the class/school. if you did, it might make more sense why your issue is not being dealt with as you think it should be.

1. some parents are a PITA, take up lots of rescources, delay reasonable responses to resonable parents.

What is it OP? First you were annoyed at helicopter parents being overly involved in their children's day to day education. Now you've shifted to saying your whole thrust is about paretns who don't have any real involvement in/understanding of their children's education

"For children with high levels of challenging behaviour, not controlled by medication, where the school experience is the only form of remediation I would argue that the classteacher is well placed to know if they can cope with mainstream"

gobsmacked
So drug them all to keep them quiet and ameniable + easy life for teachers. Dont drug them all and the teacher decides THEY cant cope send them to special school because of course they know best.......amazing and disapointing :(

some children are unteachable.............this has made me so so sad. And of course we have to trust the teachers judgement on this......

I wonder how many children out there or adults in prison had teachers/schools with that belief.............

the actual system works nothing like that...as you know surely?

doctors dont medicate children to make teachers lives easier.....

a teacher does not decide which school a child should go to....

" I believe that parents and children are the customers and should be treated as such, "

No they aren't. It's a much more complex relationship than customer/provider.

This morning before school the kids in my son's class discovered they had a supply teacher, Mrs X. One of the little girls said to her mum 'Oh I don't like Mrs X, she never lets us go to the toilet'. Mum's instant answer to that was 'You just go when you like then love, don't wait for her to tell you'. How do you build any sort of constructive relationship with attitudes like that?

PLEASE let's not turn this into the predictable teachers vs parents kick-off thread.

The OP posted (I think) in an attempt to explain some of the frustrations teachers have with interfering parents, and many posters posted thoughtful messages (which the OP has taken on board) about how things can look from a parents point of view.

The OP has also stated that she doesn't believe any children are unteachable, but surely if a mainstream school was not meeting the educational needs of your DC, and their teacher thought they might get more out of a different kind of provision, you would want to have their professional opinion on it as your DCs teacher?

.... AND many parents posted their frustration at dealing with teachers who are so defensive and dogmatic that they can't have an adult conversation.

I had a fantastic conversation with the Head of DS2 school this morning. It was a model conversation, involving DS2. I could not be happier at the solution we worked out.

"The OP has also stated that she doesn't believe any children are unteachable, but surely if a mainstream school was not meeting the educational needs of your DC, and their teacher thought they might get more out of a different kind of provision, you would want to have their professional opinion on it as your DCs teacher?"

Definitely but depending on the capability of the teacher, because dependent on which teacher was teaching my child he would be seen as challenging, disruptive, aggressive, uncooperative or polite,well mannered, charming, hard working, academically able.
Ds doesn't have widely variable days tbh but he does react badly to teachers unwilling or unable to take on board the requirements in his statement and as a result his ability to cope in such an environment is shown by challenging behaviour.
Not necessarily that the mainstream environment is wrong more that the teacher is the wrong one for ds.

"The OP has also stated that she doesn't believe any children are unteachable, but surely if a mainstream school was not meeting the educational needs of your DC, and their teacher thought they might get more out of a different kind of provision, you would want to have their professional opinion on it as your DCs teacher?"

Yes the ope said she doesnt believe any children are unteachable it was another poster that posted this comment and not the OP.

if a MS school was not meeting the educational needs of my DC. Why would be my first question. Second question would be what does the school propose to put into place to meet his educational need in THAT school. Then and only THEN if he has had all avenues used up and 1 to 1 help hasnt worked and any other provision they had sought both in the school and through me (as I have never been in the habit of leaving them to it and making it their problem) would I even consider listening to a teacher telling me that my DC needed a special school. Even then his needs would be thoroughly assessed by proffessional people such as SALT and occupational therapists and their suggestions put into place for a period of time, before I would consider removing him from mainstream.

insanityscratching- its not your DC's fault or the teacher's - there are many more variables than that. e.g. the teacher is inexperienced but the best the school could recruit. there are many children with needs in the school. the school's budget has been hammered due to staff illness. the school's budget has been hammered due to cuts/pfi.

i think the problems in schools are far more mundane and practical than personalised as parents appear to see them.

I am a primary school Headteacher (class committed) on maternity leave :-)
I've had some dreadful experiences over the years, including one pupil who would sigh,bang things, make rude faces and noises in my class whenever asked to do something and lie to her parents about things that I had apparantly said and done in my classroom. Her parents would phone and text other parents to 'discuss' me and would complain to the local Authority about my 'inability' as a teacher. I fretted for months about this, affecting my health and my family and my ability to carry out my job effectively. Luckily my colleagues were supportive and they eventually gave up.
I would agree that parents should not go in 'all guns blazing' and should try not to constantly question a teacher's abililty to do their job. Teachers are constantly monitored by their line managers with lesson observations etc. Not many other jobs carry this level of scrutiny.
Now that my own child has started school, I have heard for myself the constant belittling of teachers that goes on outside the school gates by parents who like to think they can do better. Teachers are professionals and should be trusted to carry out the job that they have trained for. I fully support positive relationships with parents, but if parents have concerns/queries, it is best to address them in a polite and mutually respectable manner. Don't go banging on the school door at 9am! And I would have to say....be prepared for the fact that your own child may not be telling you the whole story....I know that my own child sometimes comes out with some corkers when he gets home from school!
I have a great relationship with many of my school's parents (some I would class as friends). Teaching is a hard enough job without being subjected to criticism.xx

Tilly To be fair the majority of teachers try their best although it has to be said some are arrogant and think they know better than the ed psychs, paeds, SALTs and myself when it comes to handling ds and they suffered for it.
The vast majority of teacher's have welcomed my experience and input and we have worked as a team to support ds and also dd who has autism as per their statements that states that I should be fully included in all aspects of his schooling and my opinion sought.
I'd say that I have never overstepped the mark but I am no fool and expect my views to be given due consideration. I'm happy to say that in thirteen years of schooling I've only found two teachers difficult and one appalling
To be frank the teacher that was appalling wasn't just a poor teacher for ds but a poor teacher for the whole unfortunate class that experienced her proven by repeated retraining and competency hearing.
I'd like to think that no teacher would say I've been a PITA because I've worked hard not to be and even with difficult teachers I have always been polite and respectful even if my blood has been boiling at the time.

Should add that with my two's NT siblings I was more than happy to hand them over and not interfere and I can't say I ever had to speak to their teachers outside parents' evening. Looking back I can't believe I didn't appreciate how easy it all was then.

'Where the school experience is expected to be the only form of remediation as per the Statement, or as per school action plus recommendations, ie. all involved professionals look to teaching and learning to solve the child's behavioural difficulties, where there is no need for medication, where all recommendations are school based. '

Well no not really. What about the parent's role in all this. Parents can't just hand their 'difficult' children over to the school to be 'fixed'. And teachers can't be arrogant in their perception that it is them and them alone that are expected to 'fix' said child regardless of what the statement may state.

You weren't in our school playground were you? I have heard the same sort of thing from parents then they moan when the kid is out of work when he/she is older and has no respect for anyone.

I side with the teachers on that one, homework is a preparation for the next lesson not something teachers give for the fun of it!

Add message | Report | Message poster knitknack Wed 11-Jan-12 13:47:17
"And pedagogy is barely an aspect of teacher training any more, nor is evidence-based practice. "

HUH???!!! Teaching is ALL about pedagogy and 'evidence based practice' as is a PGCE... have you trained as a teacher recently?'

A PGCE barely scrapes the surface and completely ignores the development of children with SEN. As for evidence-based practice, that's a load of bollox. Teachers are taught the latest initiatives and told they are based on research and believe this. Very few actually research the actual basis of practice but the ones that do, without blindingly 'accepting' are the good ones.

'accepting' teachers ( and why shouldn't they be) are often the most damaging for the development of children with SEN.

Add message | Report | Message poster OrmIrian Wed 11-Jan-12 14:47:28
" I believe that parents and children are the customers and should be treated as such, "

N'o they aren't. It's a much more complex relationship than customer/provider.'

I hear this bollox spoken quite regulaly by teachers with overinflated opinions of their own skills. I have learned over time that it is wooly fizziness designed to throw parents off the trail for concrete answers and outcomes.