to think some parents are totally unrealistic about how schools work?

[CailinDana]

I'm a former primary teacher (now SAHM) and I loved my job but the attitude some parents had towards me and my colleagues was one of the worst aspects of being a teacher. Despite having never taught, and being a maximum age of eleven when they were last in a primary school, some parents seem to think that they know far better than teachers how to run a school.

Some threads on MN give me flashbacks to those parents. It just makes my blood boil when parents seem to be putting everything teachers do under a microscope as though they're bound to be doing something wrong. Some parents seem to be under the impression that teachers are minor dictators, completely controlling everything in the classroom with no professional standards or supervision. Other parents believe that a teacher, one solitary adult, should be au fait with every little aspect of every child's progress and ability (eg reading books) at all times despite having at least 25 children to teach. Who do they think teachers are? Where do they get these ideas from?

I do definitely think that parents should be involved in their child's education but I have seen good, hardworking teachers ground down by overbearing parents who question their every move. Teaching is a difficult enough job without feeling like people who have no real understanding of the job are constantly monitoring you. AIBU to think that to a large extent parents should trust teachers to have their children's best interests at heart and that they should try to have realistic expectations of what teachers can actually do?

Well that would depend on the client. But whoever it was, I'd certainly pick up the phone and talk to them about it.

But the reality is that most questions asked by parents are not ridiculous. Yes, they may seem small in comparison to other thiongs going on but they are not small to the parent.

As I say I specifically chose a school that understood that. And yes, I've had to pay for that service, but I don't see why others who cannot pay shuld not be given the same courtesy.

Add message | Report | Message poster OrmIrian Wed 11-Jan-12 14:47:28
" I believe that parents and children are the customers and should be treated as such, "

N'o they aren't. It's a much more complex relationship than customer/provider.'

Just because it's the time of year it is, I want to shout "OH NO IT'S NOT!".

TheRealTilly, I know you are not posting this first hand but it makes my blood boil when people use the word "Munchausens" in relation to parent's concern about their childrens SEN. I have worked with some parents whose perception of their children's special needs doesn't match with the care pathways of where I work, and where despite their keenly-felt anxiety, I can't provide them with greater frequency or intensity of therapy. This can be very stressful for these parents, but to suggest they have some sort of mental health issue because they are worried about their child having special needs in a world which patently has no understanding or empathy for children with invisible needs in particular is just horrifying. Particularly something like Munchausen's which has a particular cultural resonance because of shoddy made-for-TV movies.

There was a case in my area (quite a long time ago now) where school were insistent that a parent was "making up" certain SN symptoms and pushed strongly with external agencies to make this a Child Protection issue. This went on for quite a time, and there were endless intrusions and frustrations for this family. I can't give too much detail away, but suffice to say it would have made good fodder for one of those paranoid conspiracy websites.

The child in question came back into the system in their teens at which point, a reassessment by a multidisciplinary team (which were more in fashion then!) showed that he had Epilepsy and a rare associated language disorder. Can you imagine what that family were put through in the course of proving their innocence?

What is "utterly trivial" to you may not be to someone else. What if said coat was the only coat the parents could afford and it's loss meant a great deal to the parents?

wf - But the reality is that most questions asked by parents are not ridiculous

& i am sure that most are reponded to by the school fairly & appropirately.

I must say that the state system is not exactly being lauded here.

It's either we're too busy dealing with real problems to listen to yours or leave it to the experts.
Neither proposition is what most parents are actually looking for in a school.

Incidentally, just because a particular Trust or LEA decides that a child's SENs are "mild" because of prioritisation/resource demands doesn't mean that in an idea world that child wouldn't actually benefit from specialist therapy. Often this is a tension in the system: a parent who actually HAS cause for concern and would receive therapy or intervention in a different system is seen as a "troublemaker" because their needs are seen as low priority in this context. This is true of many students with high-functioning autism and children with speech articulation issues e.g. who can't say 'r', 'th', 'l', 'sh'. This is seen as requiring therapy in Australia and the US but not here, so something that is taken seriously there is viewed as a "nothing" here.

working9while5 - i hear what you are saying but if the school reasonalby think the parent is the one with the problem, they have a legal duty to deal with it. putting children first etc.

HowlingBitch - replacement of lost is outside the schools remit. they might have on in lost property. WW the parent do if the coat was lost outside of school?

Wordfactory, your example about an elderly person calling 999 for a glass of water highlight exactly how often the trivial is masking something quite serious. Health professionals tend to be well aware that often the "trivial" concerns of patients come to the fore when they have limited confidence in and/or anxiety about articulating their real needs.

CailinDana Wed 11-Jan-12 12:32:30
"Saying that the class isn't suitable because the school isn't suitable is surely saying the same thing?"

Surely it all depends on whether the classroom teacher and/or the school are willing to fulfill their legal obligations of making Reasonable Adjustment?

I was shocked to find that nobody at dd's school seemed to know or care that the Law actually requires a school to make Reasonable changes to accommodate a child with special needs and that they are only allowed to use the excuse of non-suitability when the changes needed would be so major that they can no longer be classed as Reasonable.

Certainly noone seemed aware that there is a supplement to the Disability Discrimination easily accessible online which gives examples of reasonable and unreasonable adjustments.

The teachers and head genuinely seemed to believe that they could make up the rules as they went along.

As a teacher in HE I have had enough training in pastoral care to know that it is not up to me to decide who should be accommodated or not, or how far I should stretch: we have a policy and it is my duty to keep myself informed of the details of this policy, and it is certainly my duty to keep within the confines of the law.

Tilly, but the school are working on (at most) half a days' worth of training in SN. the parent is working on the child's lifetime of experience.

what breathtaking arrogance, to assume that because the issue is not being seen readily in school (or, more likely not being noticed) that it doesn't exist at all.

it is all too easy to 'blame the parents'. it is not often that the parents are to blame.

working9while5 - DP helps put together statements.... i cannot see anything in the school's interest to not do this, if they think it is correct. they would get exta funding.

wordfactory - It's either we're too busy dealing with real problems to listen to yours or leave it to the experts

yes, unless you fancy training as teacher?

zzzzz thank you - i will order for DP & shove under his nose.

No Tilly I have chosen schools where that is most definitely not the ethos.

I just don't think it's fair to trivialize someones problems because someone else has it worse. How far does that go? What are real problems?

Defensively suggesting that people "train as a teacher" because they have thoughts about the profession is the weakest defence of a teacher's job possible. It always sounds terribly childish, unfortunately.

Putting together statements doesn't make you qualified to comment that because you can't see an issue at school it doesn't really exist or is being inflated. It's no qualification at all really.

I don't know what real problems are, HowlingBitch - I was told that if I pursued a statement for dd1 I would eb taking away resources from children who needed tham more (same for SALT, OT, EP, access to a dietician etc)

dd1 is severely ASD. she has a major language disorder (and, at the time I was told the above, could not communicate any of her needs to us at all - she could recite stories, and sing songs, but cold not even indicate she was thirsty, for example)

it is a standard line, designed to make parents give up and think 'oh, there are so many worse off than us, we should be grateful for what we are being given, and not rock the boat'

all pure bullshit.

silverfrog - but the school are working on (at most) half a days' worth of training

i think they dont have training to educate SEN children but they do have many decades of experience of observing how most children learn (SEN or not).

its not arrogant to say XXX has normal language development if that it what you observe. you cannot say anything else.

it is arrogant to say it if you actually have no idea of how language develops, other than through observation.

many (in fact most) people would say that my dd2 has typical language development. she doesn't in fact, but her difficulties are subtle.

there is so much that is missed by way of language and comprehension development in a typical classroom, that is only really uncovered once the child begins to have difficulty keeping up - often at a time when it is hardto then correct and re-teach, or even have enough time to catch up.

working9while5 - right so DP has put together many productive helpful statements (that parents have been happy with), educated hundreds of children, turned around a failnig school...but isnt qualitied to comment?

who in, school, is?

(NB: there is only one incident where he & colleague thought the parents were damaging their child)

in fact, if I spoke to dd2's class teacher, and she told me she thought dd2's langugae development was normal, based on her observations, I woudl seriously think about moving dd2 from the school.

what it is not arrogant for her to say is that she has seen no evidence of a difficulty, or that any difficulty I may describe has not impacted on dd2's performance in the classroom/playground as yet.

but she does not know (other than her experience of speaking to many children over the years, and being a mum) anything about language development other than the broadest of strokes. it is absolutely not her remit.

I woudl expect her to listen to my concerns, possibly spend a little time keeping an eye out for what I had mentioned, and then either report it was not a problem at school (which does not mean it is not a problem), or back me up in my request for a referral.

or maybe you think that class teachers can just take the place of SALTs, based on their years of observations?

That's a disgrace Silver. Sadly there will always be someone else worse off, That's life isn't it? If a child is having any kind of problem that is preventing he or she thriving and getting the best out of their education then it should be addressed.

Any other attitude boggles my mind tbh. They are just kids.

silverfrog - many (in fact most) people would say that my dd2 has typical language development.....

if you work in early years education, you are a professional and you are not most people......

not infalliable....but neither trying to ruin anyones life either. actually quite like parents, who mean well & are sometimes wrong.

I'm not sure how defining teaching as the delivery of a service makes things any better for parents or teachers. What service do teachers provide exactly? And if you define the service, does that mean that teachers only need to provide the service as defined and beyond that they have no responsibility?

Tilly, no need ot get over emotional about it - I have never siad that early years teachers are out to ruin anyone's life

but the point is, they are a teaching professional. and do not know the intricacies of language development. the broad strokes, yes. but not the nitty gritty. the subtle overlays.

I think what you are missing is that when I (and maybe a lot of other people too) ask my child's teacher for an opinion, it is exactly that I am asking for. not chapter and verse, hand on bible sworn affidavits that she does/does not have a particular issue.

I am asking for another view, to put together with the several I have already built up.

the teacher is just one part of that. and certainly not the final word. I really don't know why you would think it owuld be any other way.

the problem comes when a teacher sees themselves as that final word, and needs (for whatever reason) to 'prove' that the parents are wrong, and that there is no issue at all (rather than an issue which is not apparent in that situation, or unnoticed by the teacher, or dismissed)