In thinking that if you won't go out alone at night because you've got a vagina, you are actually a bit pathetic?

[solidgoldbrass]

Because, statistically, if you have a vagina, you are far more at risk of being murdered if you stay at home If your home has a man in it. Yet time and time again there's this 'Waa, waa, I need an armed escort or a male owner to protect me if I'm ever going to set a foot out of doors after dark. It's so unreasonable to expect me to use public transport or walk anywhere...'

I tend to work with what I know and have experience of more than most I suppose. But I have been attacked in my local area by both men and women. I mentioned the attack by the large group of girls as.

a - it was the most recent incident and as such is still ffresh and a little raw in my memory.

b - it is actually the incident that has caused the most severe physical injury's I have ever had.

I have been sexually assaulted by a stranger in broad daylight, and have been raped by an at the time boyfriend.

I judge my risks in any given situation based on my personal views and experience. That I feel safe and at ease with my DH speaks volumes about him personally. Yes I'm well aware that as a woman I'm statistically more likely to be attacked in my own home. But for me the numbers stack up with 7 attacks outside the home by people I don't know against 1 attack by a wanker of an X.

But that comes from living in an area that has become so violent that my DH for all his size and physical power states that no one is safe alone at night in the area.

The bit that infuriated me is the label that women who don't go alone at night are pathetic, and that DH dragging his hide out in the middle of the night to fetch me somehow confers ownership to him. I suppose however than when its him out at night and I drag myself out to fetch him that that by logical default makes him my property?

Sadly SGB by claiming this in the name of feminism tarnishes feminism for some women and serves to put people off. The moment you start labelling women as pathetic in the name of feminism you will lose some if not many.

Basil Your posts have at pints in this thread been illuminating and well thought out. Yes I think we do fear male sexual violence more because of the double rape it often involves. (I refer to is as a double rape because thats how the disection of my every action by the legal system felt)

Its the pathetic part I feel cross at too.I don't understand some of the talk in some posts as I'm not as educated as some,but I do understand that women should be able to choose to walk home alone if they wish without others challenging that right.But its not pathetic to choose not to,and just as equally,that choice should not be challenged.I'm guessing most women have experience of violence outside the home whether it be personally or through acquaintances and so we all know what can be out there.
I do still walk alone at night in spite of my experiences but only in certain circumstances and because many years have passed.Oddly I feel compelled to do this.And I like it to be my personal choice.
But to call any woman pathetic for not going out alone at night just don't feel like sisterhood to me.

totallyscunnered - that's an awful thing to happen to your friends brother, shocking and terrible.

One of my old neighbours was attacked one year, on New Years Eve. He was beaten so badly he has permanent brain damage and his short term memory is so poor that he cannot live alone anymore. He will leave pans on the cooker because he forgets about them if he turns his back, or he will forget that taps are running and flood the bathroom etc. If he goes out he forgets why and then he forgets his way home. Not only did they beat him, they pushed broken glass into his ears and then they stripped him naked so he could either freeze or bleed to death. There were plenty of people out and about, it was New Years Eve, but just not in that place at that moment and it was enough.

This is why I would not want DH walking home late at night and why I will fetch DS when he is older or worry and want him to let me know he is safe.

A customer where I work was punched in the face on his way home last week and then followed and beaten up by the man and his mates. For no other reason than he walked past a man who was urinating in the street and this man didn't like being seen. He punched him as he walked past and then fetched his friends from the takeaway to follow him and beat him up.

It was about 11:30pm, he was on a street that is well lit, has a few shops and takeaways still open and plenty of people walking home from the local pubs, which are nice enough places not usually at the centre of any drunken trouble. But he was alone and that was enough for them. He was punched while other people were about, followed and beaten up when there was nobody else to see. There were people about, just not for the last bit of his journey, once he was off the main route.

I have no need to be out and about after dark, I have a 2 year old in bed and a DH who works away. If I have to go out or need to go out or want to go out, I do, but it means taking DS with me and I go in the car and I let someone know where I am going and what time I expect to be back. DH does the same, even when he's driving home or back to his base, he lets me know what time he sets off, if he stops at the services and when he is back.

It's not ownership and it's not pathetic. It's concern for a loved ones and consideration for someone else's feelings. We want each other to be safe and we don't want each other to worry.

The thing is, for me, it's got nothing to do with "ownership" by a male anything else.

It's about each individual weighing up a perceived risk and then that individual making a decision for themselves.

And it has fuck all squared to do with anyone else.

It has nothing to do with having a vagina - I worry about DS just as much as I will DD (she's not old enough yet)

And I would (and do) go and pick my BF up at silly o'clock if he's been out and isn't getting a taxi home.

Not because I think I own him, not because he has a penis, but because I care about him.

I'm just still totally stunned that the OP was genuine and some people agreed with her insensitive and judgemental statements about womens/mens/girls/boys safety.

There's a LOT of hate in that OP for sure.

Can anyone here who has sons and daughters honestly tell me they worry more about their daughters? Or less about their sons?

Because I sure as fuck don't. I worry about them ALL. Regardless of vagina or penis possession.

To those of you who have made further disclosures - I'm sorry but I have a long day ahead of me and I can't read at the moment I will do though because we all deserve to be heard.

To don'tcallme - what you said to me earlier has been eating me all night. I seriously - and this is in the cold light of the next day - cannot believe the interpretation you put on my post, the fact that you were so, so, so very wrong, and even more so in light of my own disclosures on this thread. Sometimes people need to look past preconceptions they have based simply on a poster ID.

I won't go into the fact you didn't even read the Basils post properly so you missed the reference as to which poster she was talking to - other than to say when "listening" to people, they deserve to be listened to properly.

That was not a push for disclosure - it was a heartfelt prayer that no one else has been through or ever has to go through what we as a family are going through.

You owe me an apology. And I think you also need to look at how you repsponded in light of your own experiences and see if you are trying to lash out at others.

There is a special place in hell for the people who do these things, there has to be - because this hell is bad enough - I have not said exactly what has happened on this thread, but it is the worst thing I think of, because for us, as well as everything else - our family is now one person smaller.

Completely agree with you Countessbabycham especially

"But to call any woman pathetic for not going out alone at night just don't seem like sisterhood to me"

I'd love to see curtains close on this thread after that - I just think it's spot on - but I don't suppose we'll be that fortunate.

Fair enough if folks have something they need to add of course ...

Can anyone here who has sons and daughters honestly tell me they worry more about their daughters? Or less about their sons?

Nope, I definately worry more about my stepson. My stepdaughters are both sensible women who drive, or stay with friends, and neither walk home alone at night. My stepson has been badly injured twice, once by a stranger outside a pub which resulted in a life threatening injury and the second time again by a stranger for "looking at him the wrong way". I always advise him to get a cab. Luckily his days of going out at night to town centres with his mates are more or less over now, so the worries are diminishing.

My eldest stepdaughter works in a job involving the protection of others, so is fully aware of the dangers and takes measures to avoid risks herself.

I worry about my DSs. They are only 9 and 11 but in ten years time they will be out at night in bars and nightclubs and the chances of them getting in a fight, stabbed, or just randomly attacked are higher for young men than young women.

I'll want them to take a taxi home and stay safe. There are some really nasty people out there and drink and drugs makes it worse.

Do I worry more about my DD? No, not deep down. My gut reaction is to worry like mad about DS (who is the only one who goes out on his own regularly). The fear I feel is visceral if he isn't back when we have agreed, or if it starts to get dark and he isn't home.

DD isn't out alone very often and I can't say for sure the reasons for that. It could be that we've moved further away from her friends so it isn't the sort of quick stroll round the corner it was for DS. It could be that we live 2 streets away from a fairly rough estate now. Or it could be because she's a girl. I can't honestly say but the fact remains that DS1 at 12 was out and about independently than DD at age 12. DH is more nervous about DD (in general) than he was about DS.

It does seem to be an article of faith amongst older generations that girls can't be allowed out alone. Mum in particular who has a morbid mistruct of towns - 'you never know what might happen' accompanied by a direful look and a cat's bum mouth. But she was chased home by an American GI when she was about 13, and I'm not sure towns were always a pleasant place to be for unaccompanied women during the war, so I guess her experience has coloured her viewpoint.

But for myself I am never afraid. I can't say why. Only for my DC.

Scunnered says all that needs to be said, in my opinion. Completely agree.

I think MNHQ needs to take a closer look at some of the threads started in AIBU, and perhaps swiftly moving them to their appropriate section. I would really welcome that.

I agree too, LyingWitch. This was a clumsy, oafish, inappropriately (whatever you want to call it) badly worded thread with no regard for anyone's feelings. An apology should have been made by it's OP but she appears to be too egocentric to offer such.

It has brought about the outpouring of many painful experiences of survivors, but I hope that with that it has brought some kind of comfort and hope to those still in the thick of the aftermath of their traumatic experiences.

artex when a poster, is completely and utterly wrong, then an apology is due.

Have you read the thread?? Do you actually think mumsnet is keeping me up all night??

This is getting ridiculous. Hully, pass the wine, won't ya?

If someone has looked at the area they live in and decided that they are better off not walking home alone, they are not pathetic, and to imply that they are is shit-stirring of the most obnoxious sort.

And again, I think this is less about trying to empower women to feel safer or take measures to protect themselves and more about all of us who are "owned by men" in our mundane little lives and how stupid we are to make that choice when we could be living in a big fun open-minded world!

I agree Cheerful.

You know what - I have been experimenting in home brewing recently and I have in my integral garage a container of no less than what 5/6 gallons of wine? that's about 24 litres innit?

I have syphoned off the first demijon and it's not bad stuff (don't spill any on your clothes, mind), anyone care to partake?

One of my daughters friends was attacked recently, in the dark on her way home from school, by a man and my other daughter was approached by 2 male dodgepots in a van whilst she was waiting for her school bus one dark winters morning.

Am I now being anti feminist by suggesting to my DD's that when they go out of a weekend they return before dark? Or merely concerned for their safety?

And TBH it's the same advice I give to my sons.

OP - do you have teenage DD's?

I didn't realise that SGM. Why wouldn't sexual violence statistics be included? What if the sexual violence also includes physical violence or threats of physical violence (which I assumed almost all rapes would also include)

You'd be surprised how few rapes include violence outside of the rape itself. It's a myth perpetuated by the media; most women are raped by someone they know.

That sort of doesn't explain how the OP ridiculed women who made choices based on their experiences fears and needs.
Why some people are defending the OP is beyond me.