In thinking that if you won't go out alone at night because you've got a vagina, you are actually a bit pathetic?

[solidgoldbrass]

Because, statistically, if you have a vagina, you are far more at risk of being murdered if you stay at home If your home has a man in it. Yet time and time again there's this 'Waa, waa, I need an armed escort or a male owner to protect me if I'm ever going to set a foot out of doors after dark. It's so unreasonable to expect me to use public transport or walk anywhere...'

I do think that is a really key point.

Once bitten, twice shy.

Statistically, there may be a 0.00000000000000000000001 % chance of something happening AGAIN, but no one who has suffered an attack of whatever kind is going to take ANY kind of chance. That includes me.

Hang on, of course some people might, but the majority won't.

squeky,
I know you have said that the self blame is worse thna others blaming you. But do you think that people in Britain are conditioned to excuse the attacker and blame the victim, so that when someone does get attacked they are more likely to self blame.

It's rather teenagerish to think "it'll never happen to me", isn't it?
This is one area that I believe it's useful to learn from others' experiences. I don't need to be attacked to decide that I don't want to be attacked again - I'd rather realise and understand that it could happen to me, as it has happened to many others, and do everything I can to prevent it happening, i.e. not take unnecessary risks.

GoingforGoal: Interesting that you seem to think it would be such a bad thing for lots of women to be out at night, unaccompanied by men.

Kelly, I think some people are conditioned that way. Or certainly were in recent years, hence the pathetic punishments dished out to those who are guilty of such crimes. Some members of society in the UK do try to find empathy for the attacker, and excuses for why they did what they did, which is a metaphoric kick in the teeth for any victim. I find the current judicial culture of letting people off so lightly is disgusting and serves as no deterant whatsoever.

Personally, I dont give a shite about the "human rights" of those committing the crime, as far as I am concerned they should lose all those rights.

She didn't say that SGB, she wondered if the aim behind your thread was to encourage more women on to the streets in order that you might feel safer. There is no suggestion that women on the streets is a BAD thing.

You'll forgive me if I say that your post sounds more like you want a fight than a way forwards for womankind?

Interesting that you seem to think it would be such a bad thing for lots of women to be out at night, unaccompanied by men

I have an answer to that actually. I have already covered that earlier in this thread, but in case you missed it.

Statistically, (and I know how you like statistics..), men are more likely to be attacked at night than women. Currently.

At the moment, there are more men out at night alone than women.

If more women were out on the streets alone at night, then the ratio would change, and more women would potentially be victims at night.

So for some unfortunate women, it certainly would be a bad thing.

The key is not to be accompanied "by a man", but to be accompanied by a friend rather than be alone.

My mouth was literally like this when I read your question, goingforgoalweight. I really do not have to share my experiences with you in order to prove a point.

I think I said quite clearly that I have no problem with anyone making the personal judgement that they don't feel safe walking by themselves at night. Fair enough if you don't want to, that's really not my problem.

For me personally, I would find it limiting to not be able to leave the house at night. I am too skint to take taxis, I live in London and none of my friends live in the same borough, my partner works until 8, 9 or 10 most nights, if he's not at a late party - then he's often not home til 4. If I was too afraid to leave the house alone, my life would be pretty rubbish.

For anyone else, fuck, if you don't want to leave the house alone at night, carry on. But don't accuse me of judging when I haven't and don't assume I'm just some happy go lucky idiot who doesn't think about the risks because I make that choice for myself.

thumbwitch - I dont know if it's teenagerish to say that at all. It might be sensible in an individuals particular circumstances. I'm 46 and I have never been attacked after years of running and walking alone after dark. I could take the view that it might happen and the consequences would be horrendous so i will take no risks. But what about the things I couldn't do as a result. My life would be utterly changed and reduced. It isn't as simple as no risks good, any risk bad.

So it comes down to the definition of 'unneccessary risk'.

I think it IS a very teenage "no one can touch me I'll live forever" attitude, tbh, if you think that it will never happen to you. I'm not saying "do nothing, take no risks" - but be careful, be sensible, be AWARE that there is a risk of it happening to you and take precautionary measures. For some, that means not going out at all; for others, it doesn't - they still go out but are aware that some behaviours are more open to abuse than others.
I assume you are not unaware of the risks, and do not ignore them - but perhaps you do, I don't know. It's your choice of course.

I don't think, thumbwitch, that anyone on this thread has said they think it would never happen to them. I am constantly aware that something might happen - I never have headphones on when I'm walking, I always take the main streets at night, I cross the road if someone's walking behind me, I never have my hair in a ponytail. Beyond that, what can I do? If someone wants to attack me, I guess they will. Maybe to some of you that seems like a fatalistic attitude, but I would miss out on so much if I never left the house and that's a personal choice I'm happy to make.

befuzzled - "....and two of the women also have shared email addresses with their husbands (another pet hate of mine) - because "he takes care of all that complicated computer stuff". It has nothing to do with empathy. I am empathetic to their predicament. I just think it is a bit pathetic."

I share an email address with my wife. She doesn't drive and she doesn't walk home after dark alone either. Tonight she will be out after dark and she will take a taxi home because she feels safe that way. Her choice.

I very dare you to say my wife is pathetic.

And that is, of course, perfectly fair.

All that this thread is showing is what I said earlier.

All women should be able to walk without fear wherever they choose, day or night.

Some women have had appalling experiences that have led to them choosing not to do so. Those women should be loved and supported.

Some women live in dodgy neighbourhoods or areas where attacks are common and choose not to risk being a statistic. Thier choice should be understood and respected.

We should all be working towards the common goal of making the first statement a fact, whilst acknowledging that sometimes damage goes too deep for some to ever feel it possible.

Bloody hell I was unaware that my choice of email address was worthy of judgement. Is there ANYTHING left that won't make someone hoick their judgypants.

yellowraincoat - then you are taking precautionary measures, aren't you? you could do more if you felt you needed to but you are aware of the risks and are doing what you can to mitigate them. :)

I think it's important ot say that I was attacked over 20 years ago, and the fear from that lives at a deep and visceral level. I am too frightened to go out again alone after dark. The end. No oughts and shoulds etc. Just deep deep fear.

And statistics etc fail to mitigate such rooted experiential fear. That is the nub.

And that's fair enough, Hully.

Yellowcoat and Hully have it about right and cover all my opinion on this.
Choices and individual fears should coincide with your own action regarding your safety.

Where did I say I didn't take precautionary measures? I don't remember posting that I regularly hang around deserted estates seeking out trouble just to prove a point that it's SAFE out here.

Surely like Hully said we should be looking at why men continue to do this rather than pissing and bitching at each other.

Yes we should.

Curfew.

umm, I'm not sure what posts you're reading, yellowraincoat, but they don't seem to tally with what I'm writing. I never said you said you didn't take precautionary measures, did I? Who did? In fact my original "teen attitude" point wasn't even aimed at you or anyone in particular, although my second comment was in reply to Ormirian. So please stop assuming things that haven't been said.

Going to bed now.

so solidgoldbrass, you will you be happy in the future to advise your teenage daughter to walk home alone after clubbing in the wee small hours?