To be annoyed after visiting the Feminism section?

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Sorry, i know its Christmas but i got annoyed.

(whispers) I find the feminism board a bit scary and although I read some of the threads, I would never post there. I would self-identify as a feminist, as would my dh. But when I read some of the threads there and try to see them from the opposite perspective (Ie replace the shes with hes) they make no sense to me. If that makes sense.

Well they shouldn't make sense if reversed, because men and women are different.

They wouldn't make sense reversed because men aren't oppressed by misogyny, women are.

No, I mean...
"men hit / rape / are awful to x thousand women every year" type stuff
But men hit and rape other men, and women hit men, and men and women hit children, and carers abuse older people and disabled people... And that is all awful and wrong. And I know it's a matter of scale, and that more men kill women than women kill men. But surely more men kill men most of all... And the vast vat majority of men and women never kill anyone at all. I guess it makes me feel uncomfortable because in fighting against being the victims of generalizations and sterotypes, I sometimes feel we risk constructing new ones.

But I don't post on feminism because I don't know enough about it - I just know what I've come up with myself! And I know at some point I'll pot my foot in it and upset someone. And I'd rather not.

But those are real statistics. Of course you couldn't reverse them because they aren't true the other way around.

but abirdinthehand is right, more men are killed by other men than women are killed by men.

I think that's a very difficult topic for many people. Not many women are killed but when they are, it has an impact on a huge number of other people and ruins or negatively impacts the lives of the friends and family of that woman.

And I suppose on a site like MN, a lot of us are feminists as well as mothers. The fact that men often kill other men isn't comforting to me as I have a son. I think aggressive forms of masculinity are a bad thing for men and women.

So an importanbt question is, in what circumstances and why do men become violent - as a percentage of human acts of violence?

Abirdinthehand, I often think the same regarding rape - women are sent all these messages about how unsafe it is to go out in case we are attacked, but it is much more likely that a man will be beaten up by a random stranger.

I think the problem with men killing women is that it's often in a domestic setting and it's often a result of escalating violence. Men kill men too, of course. But I doubt many women kill those closest to them and it's very disturbing that so many men do. There is always a reason for murder - among men, I suppose it tends to be money or drug deals or something. Not a great reason to kill someone and of course it's horrible. But the main reason for men killing women seems to be "you are my partner, you are in my house, I am angry and I am going to do harm against you". Therefore it's directly correlated with the person being a woman.

Does that make any sense?

I am aware that my teenage son is more likely to be the victim of violence than my teenage daughter - but the important fact is that both are more likely to be assaulted or killed by a male.

But... When anyone, male or female is killed, it has a huge impact on other people and ruins lives and impact on the friends of that person? (confused) not more so because they are a woman? My dh is as involved with our kids, has as many friends, is as loved by his parents as I am - so if either of us was murdered it would be devastating to the same degree? That's the kind of thing I find confusing... I figured feminism was about equality, about every person being treated as a human being, intrinsically valuable and with both rights and responsibilities.

aggression in any form by anyone is bad, surely? Of course man-man murder is not a comfort - any murder is wrong, whoever the perpetrator or victim? (genuinely confused and not wishing to offend anyone in any way)

Well the three main causes of violent death worldwide (in order of size) are suicide, homicide and war.

Ohh, sorry, thread moving faster than I can type!

ABIH, I wasn't trying to make out one was more upsetting than the other; I was just addressing your points about the number of times it happens and the gender separately, but I can see it was unclear.

There are clear gender differences. Men are much less likely to be murdered by a partner or family member than women are. So that has a different impact on what men and women are afraid of and what kind of social issues lead to that murder, which is part of a spectrum of domestic violence that many women will experience. Men are much more likely to be murdered by a stranger or a person outside of the family. They will be more fearful of different situations to women.

Yellow, I kind of get your argument. But it works lots of other ways... I guess within the man-man killings, more victims and perpetrators would be under 30 and more would be from ethnic minorities? (guessing from living in London...!) and maybe more occur after 10pm and in inner city areas?
So you could argue that the 'reason' is 'you are 19 and male and black and we're in hackney and it's 11pm' (which, thinking about it, seems to be pretty much why Stephen Lawrence was murdered).

Obviously the man who kills his partner gives a 'reason ( "she wound me up") and the hackney murderer does "he looked at me funny") but the victims are just the same - victims.

Rape as an act of aggression has long been perpetrated male-on-male during wars and conflicts.

Male violence is extremely complex and socially nuanced, and there is a lot of literature on this written my men and women trying to situate it within historically specific contexts rather than simply saying 'men are crap.'

Sorry I'm cross posting and incoherent.

LineRunner that's incorrect. If you include sexual violence in the category violence, your daughter is more likely to be attacked than your teenage son.

Some girls also start experiencing domestic violence in teenage relationships.

Ah, that makes sense milly. So women are more at risk at home and men more at risk when out. And men are more at risk than women altogether (of murder I mean - and I guess of stuff like abh because of fights?)

They aren't just victims though. They are characterised in different ways which has an impact on the rest of their group, and on how the crime is investigated in the example you have given. That also adds further distress to those who were close to the victim.

And women ( altogether- in the uk) more at risk of sexual violence, and men more at risk of physical violence?

Yes, thunder, I agree with you on that. Pretty bloody depressing.

Goes back to the question of why. (Assuming heterosexual teenage relationships.)

I totally agree with you on the point about Stephen Lawrence, Abirdinthehand, but that was a racist killing and I wouldn't say most killings are racially motivated.

Where I live (also London) a young guy was killed a few months ago. He was a crack dealer, the guy that killed him was a crack dealer, they were fighting over turf. It's sort of harder to see those people as victims, although obviously it's horrible too.

Within relationhsips men generally have the advantage in strength. If my partner decided to kill me, he could do so so easily. If I went for him, he could fight me off. That's the main issue in DV, I think. You put your trust in someone that they won't hurt you and they kill you. It's just too grim.

Right, so although sexual violence and violence against women is less common, you are arguing because of the way society treats it it has a worse impact?