To be hopping mad about this?

[ParisTravelodge]

My Dds (twins aged 14), have just returned from a school trip to Germany.

Whilst there, they and other girls in the group had their bums felt/slapped by German boys of 17/18 yrs.
This happened frequently in markets, shopping centres etc.
They were all horrified by this, and told a female teacher in her 20s, who told the girls it was their own fault for wearing skinny jeans and leggings!

Am writing letter to school about it.
A friend suggested I am overeacting to cultural differences, and the girls should be flattered!
Tbh I am angry at teacher's response mostly.
What do you think?
Has anyone else experienced this?

Good example. Note how society's norms and values, particularly with regard to women's rights, has changed over the last 1000 years.

But that's partly my point - nothing changes particularly quickly, so a strategy relying on that won't work practically. The other part of my pioint is that the norms vary widely over the eras and cultures.

Err... so we shouldn't tell boys not to pinch girls' arses? Really?

Of course we should - my point is that some boys still will anyway. And so we also need to teach girls what to do about it, not just assume it won't happen and fulminate when it does.

BTW, if your happy sexual memories of being a teenager involve getting your arse slapped by a stranger in the Arndale centre, good for you. Mine are a bit more exciting.

And as to happy sexual memories to be pinched on the bum by strangers - it would have depended very much on the boy :o

C'mon, be honest enough to admit that as 14 y/o girls we all were trying all sorts of tricks to get the boys' attention - and it often worked! (And if I had to have a froth for every resulting clumsy approach by a gawky teenage boy I'd've been a foaming wreck by now)

I wasn't trying any tricks to get attention from boys at 14 and it would have really upset me to be groped in public by a stranger :(

Maybe that's what it comes down to really though whatmeworry - if you were one of those teenage girls desperate for male attention you then thought you ought to be grateful (or deserving of) ANY male attention that came your way, no matter how horrible/invasive or unwanted. So because you would have liked certain boys to have pinched your bum did you feel that you couldn't be offended by unwanted attention from boys you weren't interested in? And now you apply your view of how you were as a 14 year old to all 14 year old girls.

Maybe I just don't have the same perspective because when I wore make-up at 14 or got dressed up to go out I was very conscious I was doing it for me (certainly not for men at large because I was revoltingly loved up with a boyfriend I spent the next 10 years with and certainly not for my boyfriend who would have been quite happy not to wait an hour for me while I primped my gigantic bouffant spiral perm to within an inch of its life ).

Thinking about it the most male sexual attention I used to get was waiting for the school bus in school uniform so if I'd been smart enough and desperate enough for male attention I would have just stayed in my school uniform all the time. I would have saved a fecking fortune on ridiculous Chevignon & Chipie shite .

If what you wear could deter rape, there'd be no rape in Islamic countries that enforce very strict dress codes. Sadly there is. I've been groped on the tube a few times - when I've been wearing a full-length coat.

whatmeworry your repeated use of the word 'frothing' (I've counted at least five) against people who don't agree with you is coming across as hugely patronising.

My 15 year old DD wears jeans that look like they've been spray-painted on. It's called fashion. I find it very sad that some women on here (I assume you're a woman, but perhaps you're not) think she should wear something less 'revealing' (hijab? yashmak?) in case some out-of-control predator should deem her fair game for a sexual assault.

OP, I think you should try to ascertain exactly what the teacher said and take things further if necessary. I had hoped the days of 'they were asking for it' were long gone. It seems that sadly they're not.

Yanbu, OP.

Rape is not about sex. Rapists don't like women. It's not that she was just so tempting he had to do it.

There is no such thing as a slut/whore. A woman who enjoys engaging in consensual sex is a woman who enjoys engaging in consensual sex. Leave her to it.

Statistically speaking more woman are attacked, sexually or otherwise, by partners than strangers. A gay man is more likely to be raped by a straight man.

It's violence not sex. The views on this thread disgust me.

"But that's partly my point - nothing changes particularly quickly, so a strategy relying on that won't work practically. The other part of my pioint is that the norms vary widely over the eras and cultures."

To assert that there is no point campaigning for change because it takes too long is absurd.

Would anybody maintain that a woman cannot be raped by her husband? Less than a generation ago, this was the case; the marital rape exemption was abolished in England and Wales in 1991.

The law was changed due to campaigning; public perception changed with the law.

According to some of the twisted logic on this thread, wives dressing more modestly would have had a greater impact

"C'mon, be honest enough to admit that as 14 y/o girls we all were trying all sorts of tricks to get the boys' attention - and it often worked! (And if I had to have a froth for every resulting clumsy approach by a gawky teenage boy I'd've been a foaming wreck by now)"

I wanted attention from boys as a 14 yr old- I wanted attention from boys who I liked. Not random gropers in a shopping centre. To imply that teenage girls can't tell the difference is wrong. To imply that teenage boys aren't able to differentiate between flirting and sexual assault only strengthens the argument for more education and advertising campaigns aimed at boys.

Maybe that's what it comes down to really though whatmeworry - if you were one of those teenage girls desperate for male attention you then thought you ought to be grateful (or deserving of) ANY male attention that came your way, no matter how horrible/invasive or unwanted.

That's me - Slut of the Seventies. I was the only 14 year old girl making eyes at the boys in the history of the world, all the other girls ever were blushing maidens who hurried from home to class and never looked at boys, never mind spoke to them..

Maybe I just don't have the same perspective because when I wore make-up at 14 or got dressed up to go out I was very conscious I was doing it for me

'Course you were....

Thinking about it the most male sexual attention I used to get was waiting for the school bus in school uniform

Me too...oddly enough, it was from boys in school uniform! Who'dve thought that....

whatmeworry your repeated use of the word 'frothing' (I've counted at least five) against people who don't agree with you is coming across as hugely patronising.

Plus two Fulminatings, two Fusty's, a Complain and lets not forget a "Wringing your Hands". But I suspect no matter what words I used you would have Been Offended and Felt Patronised.

I am strongly tempted to use the word "Sanctimonious" now.....

Can you use Professionally Offended?

That one always cheers me up.

Can you use Professionally Offended?

Oh No, that is totally different, this is definitely about Being Offended

Bingo.

Well good for you whatme, shame that you feel the need to describe yourself as a slut though when it sounds like you were just enjoying your youth! Just because my experience differs from yours doesn't make mine or yours any less real or valid. However, it doesn't mean either of our experiences can be extrapolated to apply to all 14 year old girls as you seem to want to do. If pointing out that there are exceptions to your "all 14 year old girls" is sanctimonious then so be it. My variety of facial piercings often got comments like "you'd be really pretty without all that metal in that face" from men/boys from 14+ but I thought the facial piercings were pretty (only had my nose piercing at 14) - I liked how I looked in the mirror (however erroneous that view was on reflection along with a catalogue of tragic fashion errors on my part - tryhard individuality is never a good look but was the main look for most of my teen years).

Our school uniform was so repulsive that I think even the boys from school couldn't muster the enthusiasm - scratchy brown wool and yards of blue polyester.

yanbu - I'd be fuming.

edam Sad but true. For some reason the Victorian practice of covering table legs because they were evocative of a woman's legs (women's ankles were quite popular/fetishised I think back then because it was rare but possible to get a glimpse of an ankle underneath the voluminous skirts) sprang to mind when I read your post. Presumably in Victorian times a woman showing too much ankle would have been asking for it?

It's funny isn't it, the perception is that it's feminists who want to tell women and girls they shouldn't wear sexy clothes, make up and high heels. I'm guessing the 'yes but it's not an ideal world' crowd on this thread would rather poke their eyes out than describe themselves thus.

The big point of departure in all these threads seems to be whether women should take pro-active preventative measures themselves or not. If I may name the 2 camps differently without saying one or the other is "Feminist" and summarise the positions:

"Change The Worlders" say this is all just wrong and should not be happening, and one should not give way and behave as if it is, as that is just giving in. A subthread is that any preventative measure is not 100% effective anyway so therefore should not be used. Critics argue that this is wilful irresponsibility and just leads to a self reinforcing victim mentality

"Real Worlders" say the world today is not ideal, no matter what one would like, so you need to take preventative measures. A subthread is that people remain people, and all the education etc in the world won't stop those who really want to offend, so the responsibility is yours to sort it out. Critics argue that this is spending all one's time and energy managing the problems within the status quo, rather than trying to change it, and its not a guaranteed succes anyway.

Jarl is mostly talking hokum. I'll agree that Yes if you dress like a prostitute on a sat afternoon down the shopping centre you might get some unwelcome attention, but IME the women who get targeted are the ones who are vulnerable. The OPs DD and class mates were young and in a foreign country, it had nothing to do with what they were wearing. And the teacher should be disciplined for dealing with it so badly! OP YANBU. If it was my DD I would be making a formal complaint about the teachers totally inappropriate response to what is actually a criminal offence.

Jarl's words are arousing me so much that I just can't control myself.

I'll probably be destroyed for saying this but women can be just as guilty as men for seeing people as objects.

My DP went out for a lads night a while back in a kilt, as his mate was getting married and is Scottish. He came home after an hour and a half absolutely furious. They'd been groped by almost every woman they'd come across. Most had tried to lift up his kilt to "get a glimpse" or to "find out if you're wearing underwear".

He's a massive advocate of "no-one deserves this, no matter what they're wearing". He'd never do anything like that to a woman.

Try not to jizz on anyone's royalty costume if you can help it Flangelina, it's not becoming (er...pun unavoidable) for a laydee.

Barracuda I agree that if you change women for non white you get a racist and ridiculous viewpoint regarding unprovoked attacks. Brilliant example.

Feminists, in general I believe, support a woman's choice to wear what she wishes for herself.

Regarding "Change the Worlders" and "Real Worlders" I would suggest a name change.

"The World is Capable of Changers" and "Why bother to change the world nothing will happen-ers"

If we followed the second of these groups, women would not have the vote, black people would not be allowed on the same buses as white people and Irish people would be included in the same categories as dogs were accomodation is concerned. Oh and we would have an all powerful monarch and the majority of us would be serfs, but let's leave Wat Tyler and the Peasants Revolt for a moment.

We do need to change society's perception of sexual assault on women, this will not come from other women making judgements about young girls. Which these school girls are.

As we all seem to agree that no woman should be touched without consent, and that shy as well as confident women are assaulted, and that the actual type of clothing worn is no indication of whether an assault will happen or not, we can also agree that the only common denominator involved in these scenarios are these making the sexual assaults. Therefore it must be them that are targetted, and them that are held responsible for their actions.

And can we just clear up that dressing for attention does not mean dressing for a sexual assault. I'm sure a man who had a mohican and piercings as a way of attracting attention (not saying this is the sole reason anyone would dress like this by the way) would not be held even partially responsible if he was the victim of a violent attack purely because he didn't look the same as the perpertators of his attack. Would those same posters who are saying "yes but what did they expect wearing leggings" also being saying "well if he had a short back and sides and wore a double breasted suit he would have been okay. I mean really he should have known better shouldn't he, what did he expect looking like that"

Agree entirely Twelve, every person has a right not to be touched if they don't wish and I think it is terrible that it is seen as a "lesser offence" when a man is sexually assaulted by a woman. It isn't and should be treated and viewed equally.

jarl Mon 19-Dec-11 08:16:43
Please, can 1 person explain HOW you hold the following two mindsets in your brain without issues:

1. You expect to be able to dress like a slut (or whore, if you prefer) and treated with the same respect and dignity as if you weren't
2. You lock your car/house because you don't want to get robbed

I am just on p6, but see that Jarl has asked the above question twice now. Since when did sluts or whores 'deserve' to be raped or sexually molested more than any other person? Does being a prostitute mean that actually any man can rape you? Does being a prostitute mean that you are not worthy of any respect? I don't understand: prostitutes are actually human beings after all.

Also, these girls were dressed in jeans. Since when was wearing jeans slutty??

Jarl, your opinions on this are really quite odious. I remember years ago being with my then boyfriend. We went out for dinner with a couple of friends of his. In the middle of a very busy restaurant this boyfriend started spouting off (in his very loud voice) about how women wearing short skirts were 'asking for it'. I was aghast. He shouted me down. His friends were aghast. He shouted them down. Then the whole restaurant, having heard his rantings, turned on him. That was the last night I ever saw him. I bet he still holds the same horrible little thoughts. You are no different to this man and your argument holds no weight whatsoever.

"the only common denominator involved in these scenarios are these making the sexual assaults. Therefore it must be them that are targetted, and them that are held responsible for their actions"

well said.