To be hopping mad about this?

[ParisTravelodge]

My Dds (twins aged 14), have just returned from a school trip to Germany.

Whilst there, they and other girls in the group had their bums felt/slapped by German boys of 17/18 yrs.
This happened frequently in markets, shopping centres etc.
They were all horrified by this, and told a female teacher in her 20s, who told the girls it was their own fault for wearing skinny jeans and leggings!

Am writing letter to school about it.
A friend suggested I am overeacting to cultural differences, and the girls should be flattered!
Tbh I am angry at teacher's response mostly.
What do you think?
Has anyone else experienced this?

I am always bemused by this idea that rape is down to sexual attraction also.

I would hope that any of the men that I know are not the kind of person who is so lacking in power that they have to take someone else's, but the fact is you can't tell.

And that is my point. Whether you wear nothing or a suit of fecking armour, it is not going to reduce your chances of being raped. The only difference between the two outfits above is that one will give you wiggle room to justify your actions.

Plus, most men if they were to come a cross a woman naked -and even unconscious- in the street, wouldn't have sex with her. Despite the fact that she was putting herself on show and had drunk too much.

This idea that men cannot control themselves around tight jeans is an insult to men.

1. Spoken to the boys and informed them that I would be calling the police.

I'd bet money the teacher wasn't around. Then what?

2. Asked the girls if they were ok.

I'd also bet money she did

3. Not blamed them.

She didn't, she gave them practical advice rather than froth that young German manhood are just rotters and really shouldn't be, something you have so far failed to do ( the advice, that is )

It's quite simple, really.

Not quite so simple, is it?

My response to armchair critics is always "well, why don't you do it next time". Shuts most of 'em up PDQ.

And I would never write a letter to a HT without talking to the teacher first.

"I want to address the cause of the problem, not ask the victims to take responsibility for being attacked. You still have not responded to my point about what we can do to address that problem."
Addressing the problem will require time and money. It'll require education of our current youth whilst in school that there are unacceptable forms of behaviour. It'll require discipline at home, and enforced at school, so children know what no means. It'll require parents who don't put their children in front of the telly just to shut them up. It'll require a large advertising campaign to reach people who are 20+ who have come out of school and left home with the attitude that women ask for it by what they're wearing. It'll require 'lads mags' to become more responsible in what they print, or it'll require people to stop reading that tripe.

Even if we had shedloads of spare cash it'd be a little while before attitudes started changing. We don't have spare money, so in the meantime, take precautions. Not saying it'll work for sure.

"I referred to that in my earlier post as well, about how some men would target a modestly dressed shy woman or teenager and they would be less likely to have their behaviour attacked due to a lak of confidence."
You're right, but that's a different point. That shy girl in the corner has probably got other issues due to parenting/bullying at school which should be dealt with.

"You also have not responded to why you feel the need to refer to women in such derogatory terms." You asked me to stop, I did.

@antsypants: Nothing is rape-worthy. But look at what prostitutes wear. Prostitutes are trying to advertise their body as available for sex (for a price). So when you get young women wearing extremely similar clothes to those of a prostitute, what sort of message does it give off? Clothes that will help avoid rape are clothes which a prostitute wouldn't wear. Eg. cover up your boobs and bum.

And you're right. Not all rapes will be helped by wearing different clothes. But I never claimed that they would be.

"I'd bet money the teacher wasn't around. Then what?"

If the teacher wasn't around, then skip to point 2.

"I'd also bet money she did"

Good. Was that before or after she blamed them for wearing leggings and skinny jeans?

"She didn't, she gave them practical advice rather than froth that young German manhood are just rotters and really shouldn't be, something you have so far failed to do ( the advice, that is )"

Are we reading the same thread? Please point out where I have said anything like that.

Practical advice on what? How not to get your arse slapped? Well, I suppose I could always advise them to have a sex change

"Not quite so simple, is it?"

Yes. It is.

"My response to armchair critics is always "well, why don't you do it next time". Shuts most of 'em up PDQ. "

People walking away from you and shaking their head does not mean you have "shut them up".

Why don't I do it next time? Err... what? Ok. I will. On the next residential trip I go on, should a sexual assault take place on a student, I will embark on the course of action I described above. If you would like photographic evidence of this, should such an incident occur, I am happy to provide it

What worries me is that the message that the children took from this teacher was that they were partly at fault for being sexually assaulted... If someone is not able to communicate effectively with the people they are responsible for then that leaves them and the children vulnerable to a lot if problems.

I don't think that the teacher should be disciplined, I think it is an opinion that is sadly indicative of our times ( as evident in a thread full of frothy old English women)

The bigger picture worries me, teenagers in particular are very vulnerable within our society, I know young people, both girls and boys who think they don't actually have the right to say no if they are feeling under pressure because they have expressed interest in someone, it's sad and depressing, and mainly our faults as adults that this idea keeps being given legitimacy.

So a bum pinching teen boy may not seem like a criminal deserving of the most wanted list, but it is a step on this path that we keep repeating.

""I referred to that in my earlier post as well, about how some men would target a modestly dressed shy woman or teenager and they would be less likely to have their behaviour attacked due to a lak of confidence."
You're right, but that's a different point. That shy girl in the corner has probably got other issues due to parenting/bullying at school which should be dealt with."

Should the other issues be dealt with before or after she is targeted by a rapist and raped?

Jarl, have you actually seen prostitutes? I mean in real life, I have had quite a lot of contact a one point in my previous life pre-child.

The majority of prostitutes are hard drug users, so you will find them in long sleeved tops to cover track marks, they are often on the streets for hours, so are often in jeans and trainers as well as coats if they are lucky.

In my experience most had the poor hygiene and looks associated with long term drug habits.

This idea that they are tottering up and down darkened alleys in clear plastic heels and mini dresses is a myth.

You make some half decent points about what needs to change within society in order to make it equal, but you miss the biggest point which is to make it unacceptable on any level to sexually assault anyone, and for there to be no apologists, no reason for someone to feel vindicated in assaulting a woman.

Apologies, I should have been clearer. I was more thinking indoor prostitutes who can dress in a way which would encourage business- think red light district.

I wad the shy girl in the corner, and had no other oddest whatsoever, what an odd idea. In fact, I don't, and didn't see shyness as an issue.

Anyway, the fact remains that different men find different things attractive or appealing. Some will like revealing clothes, some will like leather, some will like tweed, some will like shy girls, some will like bold girls, some like confidence etc etc...so what do we do to avoid being too attractive to someone?

I am only 30. I'm also a secondary teacher, recently retrained. And with both hats on I say this teacher was wrong in her attitude, and it says more about her than the girls. It worries me that someone with her attitude is responsible for the safety and well being of young girls on a day to day basis. She is supposed to be protecting and bolstering them.ffs, not telling them they are to blame for some cretin's misdemeanor!

"but you miss the biggest point which is to make it unacceptable on any level to sexually assault anyone"

to quote myself:
"With education, people can realise that touching a womens body without her consent is wrong, and always will be wrong. And I'm really not arguing that. What I am saying is that just because you're morally right in your viewpoint doesn't mean that you can do whatever you want in the real world without consequences."

No other issues, .

I probably still am the shy girl in the corner to some now tbh, and don't see that as a problem at all.

I will embark on the course of action I described above. If you would like photographic evidence of this, should such an incident occur, I am happy to provide it

I still don't understand what precisely your course of action is, apart from criticising what someone else did.

People walking away from you and shaking their head does not mean you have "shut them up".

No, but it does normally ensure that they have to "put up" as well in that case. Saves a lot of my time.

Btw, it is also my observation that those parents who complain the loudest often have the most troublesome kids. Odd that.

i am surprised this happened in Germany i woudl be angry at the teaachers response though i do think when you are travelling you should be aware of what is considered acceptable and what is not but would have not thought twice about this when travelling to germany

sadly we do not live in an ideal world and in many countries you will be harassed for wearing very little or tight clothing but you will also offend many people be doing so. i do not think it is our right to be able to swan around doing and wearing jsut as we please just as much as i do not think it is ok for a man to harass a women for wearing revealing clothing

Are you talking about women who work in brothels? Or women who are considered escorts? Because you do realise there is no uniform and they all dress differently.

For most women who work in brothels, you will find they have been trafficked, abused, beaten, again hard drug users (it's a theme) and are kept in locked houses..

The high class prostitute (the comfortable cliche) tends to dress more conservatively as they often have to accompany people to places... These are few and far between and you won't generally find them in a red light district.

I am aware I am nit picking here, but I really would like you to see that this cliche you cling so tightly to doesn't exist, not in the way you view it.

As long as we keep viewing sexual assault as being inextricably linked to sexual attraction then we will always be in this circle of blame.

You can hold society responsible, the media, the fashion outlets, the women, but in the end it is the rapist who is at fault, even if all the above factors did not exist the rapist would rape regardless.

"I still don't understand what precisely your course of action is, apart from criticising what someone else did."

Shall I type it again?

1. Spoken to the boys and informed them that I would be calling the police. (OR, if the boys weren't there, not done this and skipped straight to point 2)
2. Asked the girls if they were ok.
3. Not blamed them. It may be easier for you to understand this point if you imagine me saying "It wasn't your fault" directly to the girls.

"No, but it does normally ensure that they have to "put up" as well in that case. Saves a lot of my time."

Hahahahhahahaaaaaahhhahahahahhahahahahahahahahaaaaaa Oh Christ, you're serious. I imagine you must get a LOT of time saved in this way.

"Btw, it is also my observation that those parents who complain the loudest often have the most troublesome kids. Odd that."

Really? It's not mine. I find that the children from abusive and neglectful homes are the most 'troublesome kids', but I will bow to your greater knowledge. How long have you been working with children, BTW?

"You can hold society responsible, the media, the fashion outlets, the women, but in the end it is the rapist who is at fault, even if all the above factors did not exist the rapist would rape regardless."

Exactly.

By making a connection between 'immodest' dress and sexual violence, the implication is that if a woman dresses modestly, she is less likely to be raped.

That's why there's less rape in countries where women dress modestly, right? Afghanistan for example?

Paris - let us know what the school says.
The teachers attitude and response was totally wrong - jeans & leggings do not mean it is their fault they get their bum pinched.
Your friend is dillusional if she thinks they should be flattered. 14 year old in a strange country getting unwanted physical attention? You are not overreacting.

well this thread shows that whilst there are many men out there who want to stop women gaining equality, there are a large amount of women supporting and encouraging them to do so.

we really are our own worst enemy sometimes.

just shocked at the ignorance of a few women on here. you are really, really stupid if you think women are to blame if they wear clothes that a man interprets as "assault me please".

NinkyNonker, there are different types of shy. There are shy people, and there are people with so little self worth that all they can do is sit in the corner thinking about how crap they are. I'm assuming we are referring to number 2 here. Being number 1 is fine, just as being an extrovert is fine. Being number 2 is normally because of some sort of abuse- mental, emotional or physical, either at school or at home. And yes, I have firsthand experience of this.

Antsypants: I see what you're saying and by and large agree with you. But what do most people think of when they think of prostitutes? The cliche is a skimpily dressed girl trying to entice men to have sex with her. Regardless of whether it's true, it's what most people associate with prostitution. I'm very aware of the trafficking issue and recently raised money for a charity that helps the victims of this.

Obviously the rapist is ultimately at fault, but that thought doesn't really help once you've been raped. If there are things you can do to reduce the possibility of being raped, why not do it?

" If there are things you can do to reduce the possibility of being raped, why not do it?"

that thinking would be thoroughly admired by the Taliban

Applying your logic we should wear burkas as this would remove any doubt whatsoever from a man's mind that we are somehow "up for it".

the thing that needs to be done is to educate the men out there that it is not acceptable to touch a women in any way unless she has very clearly consented. "Attire consent" does not exist.

Jarl. Do you not see that it is this opinion that perpetuates the myth.

For someone seemingly proactive about understanding the reasons behind the actions, you are quick to use this to try and prove a point.

In one post you talk about what needs to change in society, citing imagery in lads mags etc, however, surely you have to accept that you are just as guilty as they are and educate yourself.

Just because it happens does not meant is okay, and just because there is a billie piper cliched view of prostitutes, it doesn't mean that men are more likely to rape a woman or child dressed in that fashion, as I said before, it just makes it more likely that they will be held responsible by people like yourself sadly.

Interesting points. You've certainly made me think, I'll give you credit where it's due :) IMO there is still an element of personal responsibility, but I'll be away from a computer for the next couple of days so we'll probably just have to agree to differ. I see you view that a girl should be able to wear whatever she wants without some men getting the wrong idea in the same light that you see my view that a woman should be taking responsibility for living in the real world and dress appropriately for that to avoid unwanted attention. On the bright side, at least we both agree that touching (or anything else) without consent is wrong!

So, we start dressing in a more unprovocative fashion, then women will not be raped?

Of course not, if that worked then there would not be the incidences of rape there are in countries which adhere to traditional dress codes.

Rape is a form of domination which is largely carried out by men, it is to do with the power in penetrating someone's body and mind, removing control and consent, making them powerless.

A man with an erection because he sees a pretty girl or boy is not necessarily a threat, but a man who then uses that erection to debase and humiliate is the threat.

Do you believe that threat would not exist if there were no pretty girls or boys about?

How do you guard against the many factors that govern someone's behaviour?