To be hopping mad about this?

[ParisTravelodge]

My Dds (twins aged 14), have just returned from a school trip to Germany.

Whilst there, they and other girls in the group had their bums felt/slapped by German boys of 17/18 yrs.
This happened frequently in markets, shopping centres etc.
They were all horrified by this, and told a female teacher in her 20s, who told the girls it was their own fault for wearing skinny jeans and leggings!

Am writing letter to school about it.
A friend suggested I am overeacting to cultural differences, and the girls should be flattered!
Tbh I am angry at teacher's response mostly.
What do you think?
Has anyone else experienced this?

Sorry jarl, x post, the last one of mine was not aimed at you in particular, but the thought process in general.

Enjoy your day

This isn't, or shouldn't be about 'victim blaming'

As has already been pointed out several times, sexual abuse is often about power and wearing the right or wrong clothes isn't going to affect that. Of course girls should be able to wear what they want without being touched or approached, but this is the real world.

The vast majority of men wouldn't touch girls inaapropriately, but some do. In a big city where there is an obvious language barrier, some men will take their chances. They would probably never go any further than a quick bum slap, and that doesn't make it ok, but it does mean that it is liklely to happen at some point.

The naievity on this thread is astounding. As women, haven't most of you had to fend of unwanted male attention at some point in your lives regardless of what you are wearing? I know I had to do it quite often when I was younger, especially in London. And on a school trip to Paris, the unwanted attention was almost constant. I found the much older men talking to me in a suggestive way on a bus far more intimidating than the group of boys who walked past and gave a quick bum slap.

Girls need to be told how to deal with it, and boys need to be told that it is a serious matter and they should never cross the line. It's that simple. Going on about how it's not the girls fault helps no one. Of course it's not the girls fault. But that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be told that it could well happen, and what they should do or say when it does.

Taking Jarl's advice on board I wonder how we should go about tackling racially motivated crimes? How about the following practical tips for a campaign on avoiding being racially attacked:

1. Advise anyone non-white to use lightening creams in order to 'disguise' the colour of their skin when they go out or at the very least to use a good coating of pasty foundation so as not to appear so non-white;

1. Advise anyone non-white not to expose their skin to the sun in case they make the colour of their skin darker which then encourages racially motivated crimes (if you're Asian or black and you insist on getting a sun tan in the summer however slight, well, to be honest, what do you expect?);

1. Advise people to avoid wearing any form of non-British*/forrin looking clothing, religious or otherwise (e.g. turbans/burkhas/headscarves/sarees/shalwar kameez/african national address). The sight of a turban etc. will enflame a racist to the point where they cannot control themselves and will feel compelled to attack you. Keep yourself safe and don't give them that reason.

1. If you are non-white try and be accompanied by a white person everywhere you go - this will lessen your chances of being racially attacked because (a) you are less vulnerable when not alone so it makes sense for non-white people to not go out alone; and (b) be accompanied by a white person gives the racial attacker a visual deterrent - they see that even as a non-white person other white people are willing to socialise or spend time with you and therefore it makes you less of a target;

1. If you are non-white do not drink too much or preferably at all. Drink lowers your inhibitions and makes you a target for the racially motivated attacker;

1. Get a taxi. Look at what happened to Stephen Lawrence when he was on his way to get a bus. Obviously he should have absolutely been able to get a bus without being attacked but if he had just taken sensible precautions like getting a taxi maybe he would still be alive today; and

1. If you must speak in a language other than English while in public, keep your voice low and be discreet. Don't be flaunting the fact that you can speak another language or you have a non-English mother tongue. Racists will use any excuse to attack you - don't give them that excuse.

So women non-white people - to summarise - moderate your behaviour, freedoms, dress, travel etc and try and disguise the fact you are not white a man as much as possible and together we should be able to ensure you are keeping yourselves as safe as possible.

*extremely clumsy wording - apologies - anyone who identifies as British culturally or is born here or has a British passport is of course British - I am not sure what would pass as British national dress - Morris dancers for the English and kilts for the Scots?! Welsh?

Barracuda, that's ridiculous.

It comes back to the point about not 'victim blaming', because of course it is never the victims fault.

But in the same way that many non white families probably educate their children about racisim and try to equip them with ways to deal with racism when it happens, we should also be teaching our children/teens how to deal with unwanted sexual attention.

It does no good to just tell them that it shouldn't happen and give them no strategies on how to deal with it when it does.

Of course it would be lovely if we didn't have to tell girls that as they get older that men will start to become attracted to them and might behave innapropriately. It would be even better if all non white children could be told that racism is a thing of the past and they are never going to encounter it so they don't need to know how to deal with it. But this is the real world.

Shall I type it again?

All very well, but what are you actually going to DO that changes the situation?

Of course its not the blufddy girls fault, but the teacher needed to give the kids strategies that work, not a lecture in feminist ideology.

Wringing your hands and saying "how terrible, and you are not to blame" is not a practical nor effective solution for a teacher on the spot, its just a ticket to justifying a victim mentality.

And btw - I do strongly suggest telling people who criticise you when you are in a situation and they are not to "put up, shut up, or do it themselves next time" - it stops a a lot of unneccessary and time wasting crap in its tracks in my experience.

"but this is the real world."

That does not mean we cannot change it.

I think it is churlish to assume that the anti-victim blaming views on this thread are borne of naivety. All of us have experienced it and want it to stop- we just disagree as to how we should go about stopping it.

"Girls need to be told how to deal with it, and boys need to be told that it is a serious matter and they should never cross the line. It's that simple. Going on about how it's not the girls fault helps no one. Of course it's not the girls fault. But that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be told that it could well happen, and what they should do or say when it does."

I agree that girls need to be told how to deal with it, but disagree that they should deal with it by dressing differently. I agree that boys need to be told it is serious and not to do it. Going on about how it is not the girls' fault helps the victims. The girls. It helps to change public perception of sexual assault and shifts the thinking of the lawmakers in order for casual sexual assault to be taken (and punished) seriously. Telling girls how to deal with it should involve telling them how to report it, and giving them confidence that it is unacceptable and something will be done. Not criticising them for the clothes they wear. Unless we stop putting the responsibility on the victim in this way, the 'real world' will not change. And it can.

Whatmeworry, I feel a bit sorry for you now.

You just keep repeating the same old trite phrase, like it's all you have to contribute on the subject.

"Of course its not the blufddy girls fault, but the teacher needed to give the kids strategies that work, not a lecture in feminist ideology."

Dressing differently is not a 'strategy which works'. It's victim-blaming bullshit.

"Wringing your hands and saying "how terrible, and you are not to blame" is not a practical nor effective solution for a teacher on the spot, its just a ticket to justifying a victim mentality."

Victim mentality? Eh? Now, if you truly believe this, I just feel sad for you. Oh, and 'wringing hands'? Really? I thought you may have a counterpoint to make, but it would seem not.

"And btw - I do strongly suggest telling people who criticise you when you are in a situation and they are not to "put up, shut up, or do it themselves next time" - it stops a a lot of unneccessary and time wasting crap in its tracks in my experience."

I'll er.. get right on that, yeah, brilliant

Hi everyone.

I didn't really want to get into what the girls were wearing. But I can tell you that they were not dressed revealingly. They are quite shy, and wear leggings with hoodies etc. They were also wearing qulited anorak things (as Germany is cold).

I was of course angry that they were groped, but of course realise that school cannot control behaviour of boys/men in another country,

Most of all I was angry that the teacher blamed the girls for it. I can't belive this attitude persists in someone we entrust to not only keep the girls safe, but also educate them.

Also, this trip is run each year to the same place, and the way the teacher reacted led the girls to believe she knew this might happen to them.
Yet the school did not warn the girls or us of this.
I did not know this went on in parts of Germany.
My daughters would not have worn leggings or skinny jeans if they knew about this.
My daughters (and other girls) reacted themselves by using some of their spending money to buy new jeans whilst there.

I agree with you completely Tethers.

Going on about how it's not the girls fault will help the girls see that they did nothing wrong, and that's all well and good, but it doesn't help them the next time it happens. I would hope that they know they did nothing wrong anyway, as presumably they were just standing there or walking along minding their own business.

I don't think it has anything at all to do with the way girls dress. Skinny jeans and leggings are not provocative, and even if the girls were wearing mini skirts and boob tubes they should rightly expect not to be touched. But I don't think a young girl wearing a mini skirt and a boob tube can realistically expect not to be looked at. They probably will be looked at, and may well be propositioned. As I said, when that happened to me as a teenager I found that far more intimidating than someone just walking past and giving a quick slap, and I used to wear patched jeans and cardigans!

Whatmeworry, I feel a bit sorry for you now.

Victim mentality? Eh? Now, if you truly believe this, I just feel sad for you. Oh, and 'wringing hands'? Really? I thought you may have a counterpoint to make, but it would seem not.

I always know that when this gets trotted out there is no longer any rational argument to be had.

You clearly believe in an ideology that says no woman should ever take steps to reduce any risk to themselves, and that Society Must Change instead, despite massive and repeated evidence that it ain't going to do so anytime soon.

I don't think that is a rational view, and I think its promulgating a position of women as the Eternal Passive Victim.

Paris - did the girls find that when they wore baggier jeans that the attention stopped?

I would think that it may have helped but wouldn't completely prevent it. Which begs the question 'what should the teacher (or the parents) have said?'

Imo the girls should be told that it might happen in advance so that they aren't caught off guard, and given words to use to tell the boys to bugger off.

Most of all I was angry that the teacher blamed the girls for it. I can't belive this attitude persists in someone we entrust to not only keep the girls safe, but also educate them.

I really think you need to establish exactly what the teacher said - perish the thought that 14 y/o girls are prone to be a bit economical with the truth and instead ladle on the drama.

Also, this trip is run each year to the same place, and the way the teacher reacted led the girls to believe she knew this might happen to them. Yet the school did not warn the girls or us of this. I did not know this went on in parts of Germany.

Unless your DD live in a nunnery, they will know that wherever teenage boys and teenage girls are put together, some bums will be pinched. Its what some teens do, Always have, always will IMO, no matter how much re-education is ladled on at school.

My daughters would not have worn leggings or skinny jeans if they knew about this.

Ah, so the teacher may have actually been....right?

Yes the boyfriend jeans stopped it.
I would have liked.
Warning in advance from school that this might happen (as the teacher was not suprised, which led me to think she may have known in advance about this). This trip happens every year.
An non blaming explanation for the boys behaviour.
They girls could have been given some advice about what to do if this did happen(or any unwanted attention, here or abroad)
If my daughters had known that legging would have led to this they would have not worn them.
I agree that they have the right to dress as they want, but they would not have attracted this attention if they could have chosen not to (as I did last year in Marrakech, I chose to wear a black maxi dress with sleeves).
They were denied this choice.

The teacher didnt ask if they were ok, it was a sort of shrug "oh were you wearing leggings? well it's your own fault then".

One nice thing that came from it is that the girls' male friends were just as shocked as they were, and thought it awful too.

"You clearly believe in an ideology that says no woman should ever take steps to reduce any risk to themselves, and that Society Must Change instead, despite massive and repeated evidence that it ain't going to do so anytime soon."

Please link to this massive and repeated evidence. Cheers.

Or, if you like, put up or shut up

"but this is the real world"

so the 'real' world is one where women should just keep their mouths shut and put up with men touching their arses because they feel like they have a right to? Utterly ridiculous. I can't understand how anyone thinks this kind of argument holds water. As if women who dress in unshapley clothes are never assaulted!

"If there are things you can do to reduce the possibility of being raped, why not do it?"

like never leave the house again, what if your housemate/partner/father is a rapist?

I fucking hate this idea that women are responsible for rape. Which is basically what you are saying, that some eomen should bear some responsibility for their rape. FFS listen to yourself. If you have a daughter or a sister or a mother and they were molested or raped would you for one second be putting the blame on her? Shame on you.

slave Statistically speaking you are more likely to be the victim of a racially motivated attack if your skin is not white in exactly the same way, you are more likely to be a victim of rape if you are a woman. If it's not victim blaming to tell women to modify what they wear to, where they go at what times, who with etc just to avoid being attacked, then neither is it victim blaming to tell non-white people to modify what they wear, how they behave, where they go at what times etc to avoid being attacked either.

Do you agree?

so the 'real' world is one where women should just keep their mouths shut and put up with men touching their arses because they feel like they have a right to?

Errr, no.

That is not what I said. What I am getting at is that this stuff happens. If women and young girls are aware that it might happen in advance of it happening, they might not be so shocked, and are therefore better placed to tell the man to bugger off.

If they are approached on the street, then they should be aware that they should go to a shop or a more crowded area. If it happens on a bus or a train then they sit near the driver, tell someone in uniform, make a mental note of a description of the guy, have a sentence ready to say that makes it clear that they are confident that they can keep themselves safe and that they don't want the attention or to be touched.

That is not 'keeping your mouth shut and putting up with it', it's knowing how to deal with it if it does happen. Because no matter how much we think it's out of order, it will happen. The world won't change overnight, and until people won't risk touching arses in the same way that they won't use racist insults that were once commonplace, women are better off knowing how to deal with it.

Please link to this massive and repeated evidence. Cheers.

Good Lord, where to start? Human behaviour for the last 1,000 years perhaps?

Only on Planet Perfect are teenage girls dewy eyed and touchingly naive, and teenage boys perfect little gentlemen.

On Planet Real World the girls go gangbusters to allure, and the allured boys make hamfisted advances. Some boys will always pinch girls bums. The girls are not neo-tarts, the boys are not neo-rapists, they are all just teenagers. In a few years they will be teachers and nurses and lawyers and so on.

And you lot all sound like a bunch of fusty old hens IMO - don't you recall when you were teenagers?

The more things change, the more they stay the same....

barracuda, I think I agree, but your question is slightly confusing!

But I think what you are saying is beside the point. I haven't said that women shouldn't be allowed to wear what they want.

But women will get more male attention if they are wearing very little in the same way that a car is more likely to be broken into if it's unlocked. It's not right, but it's the way it is.

The fact that many women and young girls go out wearing very little deliberately in order to look sexy and attractive to the opposite sex really doesn't help.

OK slave so people who are non-white will get more racist attention if they are wearing obvious religious/non-British clothing, speaking a foreign language in public etc in the same way that a car is more likely to be broken into if it's unlocked e.g. they are not taking sensible precautions.

I agree it's not right. I disagree that because something is it either ought to be or there is little point fighting against it.

Why do you think there are no police campaigns advising non-white people to avoid drawing attention to themselves in order to avoid being racially attacked? Do you think there should be campaigns/advice given to non-white people telling them to tone down/disguise their non-Britishness (for want of a much better word) in order to avoid being racially attacked?

The fact that so many non-white people wear turbans/sarees/shalwar kameez because they want to (for many reasons, religious, comfort, pride in their appearance, vanity), I assume, really doesn't help them does it?

"Good Lord, where to start?"

Anywhere you like

"Human behaviour for the last 1,000 years perhaps?"

Good example. Note how society's norms and values, particularly with regard to women's rights, has changed over the last 1000 years.

Still think society is unable to change?

"On Planet Real World the girls go gangbusters to allure, and the allured boys make hamfisted advances. Some boys will always pinch girls bums. The girls are not neo-tarts, the boys are not neo-rapists, they are all just teenagers. In a few years they will be teachers and nurses and lawyers and so on."

Err... so we shouldn't tell boys not to pinch girls' arses? Really?

"And you lot all sound like a bunch of fusty old hens IMO - don't you recall when you were teenagers? "

Nice comeback. No, really. 'Fusty old hens'. I'm writing it down.

BTW, if your happy sexual memories of being a teenager involve getting your arse slapped by a stranger in the Arndale centre, good for you. Mine are a bit more exciting.

"If they are approached on the street, then they should be aware that they should go to a shop or a more crowded area. If it happens on a bus or a train then they sit near the driver, tell someone in uniform, make a mental note of a description of the guy, have a sentence ready to say that makes it clear that they are confident that they can keep themselves safe and that they don't want the attention or to be touched."

Fair enough. One thing I remember my mum telling me was that once when she was groped on a bus she grabbed the man's hand, thrust it into the air and said very loudly 'Who does this hand belong to, I just found it on my bum'... IMO it is better to teach all our children, and in particular our male children, that this kind of groping and molestation is not right. Why should we concentrate on getting girls prepared to be mollested when we should be teaching boys that they should not assault people.

If I had a daughter I would certainly prefer to teach her to fight back, shout loud and protect herself from attack when it happens than have her run to the bus driver for help.

Well said TheRuderBarracuda.

Why should it always be about teaching womwn to put up with 'the inevitable'. That's just a shit way to do things.

at tethersjinglebellend