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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be hopping mad about this?

259 replies

ParisTravelodge · 18/12/2011 09:07

My Dds (twins aged 14), have just returned from a school trip to Germany.

Whilst there, they and other girls in the group had their bums felt/slapped by German boys of 17/18 yrs.
This happened frequently in markets, shopping centres etc.
They were all horrified by this, and told a female teacher in her 20s, who told the girls it was their own fault for wearing skinny jeans and leggings!

Am writing letter to school about it.
A friend suggested I am overeacting to cultural differences, and the girls should be flattered!
Tbh I am angry at teacher's response mostly.
What do you think?
Has anyone else experienced this?

OP posts:
tethersjinglebellend · 19/12/2011 08:17

Come now, That'sNot- we all know that some rapes are for perfectly good reasons. Right?

ThatsNotSantasBabyBelly · 19/12/2011 08:23

FFS jarl, why not look at addressing the problem of boys and men thinking this is acceptable? Why do you see that as a lost cause? You must know some pretty shitty men for that not to even cross your radar.

And for the record, the shy teenager in the corner dressed very modestly is just as likely to get groped, because the gropers will take that lack of confidence and use it against that girl as being less likely to handle the unwanted attention.

So what do you suggest for that?

And a personal request, please stop using emotive terms like slut and whore to decribe women. I note you arent using any derogatory terms to describe the men in these situations.

Proudnscary · 19/12/2011 08:23

Jarl - your language and attitudes are extremely unpleasant but you know that, and are having fun tugging people's chains aren't you?

Well, knock yourself out and have fun.

I am just glad that I never uttered the words (or thought them) 'dressing like a slut or a whore' - it must be quite dark living in your head.

AwayinaKayzr · 19/12/2011 08:24

What a load of utter bull shit!!!!

Jarl, my friend was raped last winter while wearing longjohns, jeans, big snow boots, a bra, thermal vest, t-shirt, jumper and a coat. So which part of her outfit caused her to get raped then?

Ifancyashandy · 19/12/2011 08:26

Jarl, you are putting the responsibility of not being raped on the female, suggesting she has the ability to cause / prevent the rape /assault depending on what she is /isn't wearing.

Rape (and the and avoidance of) has nothing to do with clothing. You cannot 'locking up a woman' (to use your analogy) will not prevent rape.

Rape its about power, not sexuality.

MakesXmasCakesWhenStressed · 19/12/2011 08:26

1 - no, I wouldn't expect to be treated with the same respect and dignity. I would expect to be pointed and stared at. What I would not 'expect' is that anybody thought it OK to come over and sexually assault me and for that to then be my fault.

And how about you say 'scantily' or 'skimpily' dressed, rather than 'dressed like a slut or a whore'

Whatmeworry · 19/12/2011 08:32

Of course these girls did nothing wrong. The boys and the teacher, however, did do something wrong.

The boys did wrong. The girls did nothing wrong - agreed.

But IMO the teacher did nothing wrong, IMO she did what she knew would work in Germany with teens. I think your attitudes are very patronising tbh, I'd trust a young and experienced female teacher's judgement more than a bunch of frothy older English women on MN.

I hope the HT defends his teacher and tells the OP she is free to keep her kids at home next trip, or that will be yet another young, enthusiastic teacher shafted.

mumwithdice · 19/12/2011 08:36

Jarl, rapists rape no matter what you're wearing. There are no magic precautions to take against sexual assault. That is the point.

When someone groped me as happened to these girls, I was wearing a skirt that came to my ankles and a longsleeved shirt. By your logic, I must have somehow deserved it. Never mind that he was a tosser on a bicycle whom I'd never seen before; I clearly must have been dressed in an inviting way, yes?

ThatsNotSantasBabyBelly · 19/12/2011 08:38

Or the young teacher hasn't realised yet that it is the behaviour of the boys that is at fault. Like many on this thread.

And I am 30 so hardly an older woman - although they are allowed opinions too you know

sitandnatter · 19/12/2011 08:40

Rather worried such old fashioned and hideous attitudes still exist. I must remember to tell my 14 year old his skinny jeans are banned because he might get groped. He'd look at me as if I were quite mad and he'd be right to too.

I'm not sure what else the teacher could do though. If she advised the girls to tone down their dresswear because this could be a problem, then I don't have a problem with that as she isn't going to be with the girls all day every day and she needs to look at how the groping can be prevented.

If she said well "it's your fault look at yiour clothes" that is a whole new ball game. It depends if the advice was given to help prevent future gropes or as a way to blame the girls for the dirtyfeckers scumlbags' groping.

AwayinaKayzr · 19/12/2011 08:42

I'm sorry but I think the teacher is at fault here. Nothing those girls did meant it was ok for them to be groped. The teacher never ever should have said that.

Oh and I am not a 'frothy older English woman' I am 25 so probably about the same age as the teacher.

Dustinthewind · 19/12/2011 08:44

I'm a frothy old English woman. and an experienced teacher and a parent of a teenage boy and a young woman at university.
And opinionated.

antsypants · 19/12/2011 08:51

Jarl, your question has been answered several times, I would be interested to know what clothing you consider to be slutty and what you consider royal.

Whatmenot...

It's a little sad and pathetic that you would assume those who object vehemently to the thought of young girls being sexually assaulted as

  1. Old
  2. Female
  3. English

Quite a narrow minded view perhaps?

Never mind.

jarl · 19/12/2011 08:54

MakesXmasCakes and ThatsNotSantasBabyBelly- point taken on language.

ThatsNotSantasBabyBelly - of course it's not acceptable! And none of the men i know would rape a women. But I am very aware there are some nasty people out there, but you seem to be content with putting your fingers in your ears and going "lalalalala, it's wrong so they're not going to do it".

If a women gets raped, it's not her fault. But maybe, just maybe, you'd be able to reduce the likelihood by dressing more modestly on a night out. Not reduce it to zero, but reduce it. Is that worth doing or not?

To all of you who think that I have a very dim view of men/all men I know are arseholes, that's not true at all. All the men I know wouldn't rape a women. But go buy a copy of nuts and read it, and you'll realise that for those magazines to be circulating, there have to be men that agree with the viewpoints in said magazines/enjoy reading them. And it's those men that are the problem. Is it a lost cause? No. With education, people can realise that touching a womens body without her consent is wrong, and always will be wrong. And I'm really not arguing that. What I am saying is that just because you're morally right in your viewpoint doesn't mean that you can do whatever you want in the real world without consequences.

It's also wrong that people get robbed, mugged and murdered. You (hopefully) take steps to avoid the last 3, when I suggest doing likewise for the first one, either "men should be able to control themselves" or "men shouldn't do it".

Tryharder · 19/12/2011 08:55

Also dismayed by some of the comments on here. Some appear to be suggesting that these children were at fault for wearing leggings and jeans.

And having lived in Germany for several years, I consider that most Germans would be highly offended at the suggestion that it is culturally acceptable to sexually harass children in their country.

Shameful.

Dustinthewind · 19/12/2011 08:56

I'm pretty sure that my young, male DS feels very strongly about this topic.
He has female friends he likes and respects, and last year he came home very distressed and confused after having been assaulted by a gaggle of women in Brighton on a hen night at around 7pm.
They are lucky that he escaped rather than retaliating with violence, he has Asperger's and was bewildered by the unexpected mauling. But if he'd punched his way free, he'd have been the one in trouble. Because sexual molestation is seen as a joke. Angry

Whatmeworry · 19/12/2011 08:57

I'm a frothy old English woman. and an experienced teacher and a parent of a teenage boy and a young woman at university.

OK then, so what would you have done instead? Bear in mind your advice has to:

  • be effective
  • be practical
  • not inflame any situation.

And I too have a teenage DD and DSs, and I find it hypocritical on these threads for people not to admit that some teen girls will dress in ways that would make a tart blush and go out of their way to attract boys' attention, and some teen boys will pinch girls bums.

(In fact the thing I am struggling with most here is the idea that teenage British girls would not have given the German boys much the same lip they give British ones)

AwayinaKayzr · 19/12/2011 08:59

I have never ever got up in a morning and said "I am going to do x,y and z to make sure I don't get murdered today"

What the hell are we meant to do to avoid being murdered?

Plus no I don't think women should dress modestly on a night out if they don't want too. I have gone out in practically nothing several times and not been assulted. But like I said my friend in a million layers got raped at 7am on the way home from work. So I don't think clothes make a difference.

Dustinthewind · 19/12/2011 09:01

Assertive and loud negative responses by the girls in question, especially as they were in public in the daytime. Clear and attention-getting.
Rather like the Kidscape anti-bullying seminars where children are taught to use their Big Voice to say no and stop.
It's not a perfect solution, but better than cringing, blushing or blaming the girls for what they were wearing.

tethersjinglebellend · 19/12/2011 09:02

"I'd trust a young and experienced female teacher's judgement more than a bunch of frothy older English women on MN."

I'm a 34 year old secondary teacher with ten years' experience. Does that mean you trust me more or less than the teacher who absolutely did the wrong thing?

BTW, I would have:

  1. Spoken to the boys and informed them that I would be calling the police.
  2. Asked the girls if they were ok.
  3. Not blamed them.

It's quite simple, really.

EnjoyResponsiblyIfSleighFlying · 19/12/2011 09:04

I think OP you'd be doing the teacher a disservice if you were to lodge a complaint against the teacher, particularly if you were to do so without talking to her first.

It's not as though she could have physically stopped the boys, but I do think that her (probably flustered, certainly unthinking) remark was incorrect. Like many of the posters have said evidence suggests that rape isn't predicated on a persons clothing.

What do the other mothers think? Is there a way that a couple of you could meet with the teacher and get tobthe bottom of the situaton. Please try to reasonably influence her, as Whatme says it would be a pity to let what may have been a comment made in stressful circumstances impact her career.

jarl · 19/12/2011 09:05

"Plus no I don't think women should dress modestly on a night out if they don't want too. I have gone out in practically nothing several times and not been assulted. But like I said my friend in a million layers got raped at 7am on the way home from work. So I don't think clothes make a difference."

I know someone who wasn't wearing a seatbelt and there was a car crash* and they got thrown out of the car which then exploded but they walked away. So therefore I'm not going to wear a seatbelt. And I'm going to tell my children not to wear seatbelts too. Sound reasonable to you?

*This story may not be true. But hopefully it gets the point across. I accidentally left my vehicle in bristol city centre with the keys in the ignition for 4 hours and it didn't get stolen. Will I be doing that again? No.

And yes, maybe 'steps to avoid being murdered' was going a bit far. point still stands though.

ThatsNotSantasBabyBelly · 19/12/2011 09:06

I do not have my fingers in my ears - I want to address the cause of the problem, not ask the victims to take responsibility for being attacked. You still have not responded to my point about what we can do to address that problem.

As the variables are so huge when it comes to be attacked, and apart from the fact a woman is not a chattel and so not comparable to a house being burgled, it is pointless to think about what a woman can and can't do to lessen the chances of being attacked.

I referred to that in my earlier post as well, about how some men would target a modestly dressed shy woman or teenager and they would be less likely to have their behaviour attacked due to a lak of confidence.

But you have ignored that point as well.

You also have not responded to why you feel the need to refer to women in such derogatory terms.

One could almost think that is because you have no responses to give...

antsypants · 19/12/2011 09:11

I am still waiting for some clarification on what is considered rape worthy dress and what clothes will help avoid rape...

I'm surprised you haven't answered jarl, you seem to hold firm opinions on everything else.

AwayinaKayzr · 19/12/2011 09:15

I will just give up on this.

Jarl, clothing makes no difference to rape. A rapist will rape someone regardless of what they are wearing because they do not care about the clothing, they care about the power they have over their victim.

How does it work when a woman is raped by their partner? Is it her fault for probably wearing nothing in front of their partner?