To be hopping mad about this?

[ParisTravelodge]

My Dds (twins aged 14), have just returned from a school trip to Germany.

Whilst there, they and other girls in the group had their bums felt/slapped by German boys of 17/18 yrs.
This happened frequently in markets, shopping centres etc.
They were all horrified by this, and told a female teacher in her 20s, who told the girls it was their own fault for wearing skinny jeans and leggings!

Am writing letter to school about it.
A friend suggested I am overeacting to cultural differences, and the girls should be flattered!
Tbh I am angry at teacher's response mostly.
What do you think?
Has anyone else experienced this?

YANBU. Good advice up thread OP from someone as to constructive suggestions to put in your letter : "The teacher should have offered more helpful advice (ensuring the children had the appropriate language skills to say "don't touch me " loudly in German, and knowing how to get help if they felt in danger)."

Slave "I can't believe that on a website full of women it is coming as such a shock that random men pinch arses. The only thing we can do is teach our young girls on how to deal with unwanted attention and to keep themselves safe."

I don't have a DD either. I have a DS. I will however be teaching him he has a responsibility NOT to give unwanted attention and that random sexual groping of people in the street is NEVER acceptable no matter what they are wearing. Not sure why it is only the victims' responsbility (e.g. females) to "keep themselves safe" and why you think not having a DS means you needn't concern yourself with the topic of unwanted sexual attention with either a DS as giver or receiver of unwanted sexual attention. Does happen to boys too however rare in a walking down the street context.

Jarl = Mr Benn perhaps? Can't really take your opinion seriously if you think dressing up in a "royalty costume" would mean you would get treated like royalty. Will put on the plastic tiara left over from the Royal Wedding shenanigans and an evening dress for the supermarket tomorrow and see how quick they are to seal off all the doors and call extra security to ensure no members of the public are able to assassinate me while I pick up some bread and milke

Jarl you are speaking crap. Defining dress as sluttish or whorish is silly. Especially in this case when the girls were wearing leggings or skinny jeans which is what a lot of sahm wear in my area.

FFS My dh looks hot in a suit, he doesn't expect to get molested every time he wears a suit.

People should not grope, slap or otherwise molest strangers.

Girls should not expect this, and the anologies with house keys etc are complete bunkum.

One of the implied duties within your contents insurance is that you will have left your property secured when the property is unoccupied, the reasoning being that you are taking steps to reduce the risk of a crime being committed against your property.

It is straight forward... Lock your door and windows when you are out.

I'd be interested in knowing jarl, how you can take all encompassing steps against sexual assault, ignoring for a moment the ridiculous and patronising descriptions of princess and slut ( because we all know the madonna and whore roles are the only ones women can play)... How do you define asking for it? How do you dress in a non alluring fashion?

One of the generic male fantasies is the schoolgirl outfit, does this mean our children are therefore fair game for being a constant source of sexual attention? Or do we expect the same behaviour from men as we do ourselves?

I think it is debasing and dangerous to have this idea that it is a woman's responsibility to police a man, absolving a man of the blame of sexual assault by blaming the victim is one of the main reasons that women still have their fingers cut off and are subject to punishment rapes in other countries, because women are seen as passive objectified items for men to own.

One mans bread is another mans butter, for every man who likes a woman tottering about in clear plastic heels, there is another who likes women in uniforms, or tweed...

Not that sexual assault has much to do with sexual attraction

Jari - am sure that the man in a tracksuit might expect not to get the job but I think he would also expect the interviewer not to lean over and tickle his balls. Yes you might get stared at but it does not warrant being physically touched sexually or otherwise. let's hope twin sets don't become sexually appealing or your going to be in trouble!

So Jari, where can I get me some of this rape-proof clothing?

I lock my house because I can. A determined burglar could still get in. I cannot lock my body. Your argument suggests that dressing in a "non-slutty" way affords a degree of protection. It doesn't.

Houses are burgled as a deliberate, controlled act with the ultimate aim of financial gain. Your argument is that how something looks affects its likelihood of crime against it, so are you suggesting that making my house look unattractive will protect it against burglary, just as your imaginary magical clothes protect women?

I'm sure those with more knowledge here will know more about the evidence, but my understanding is that the majority of rapes are not carried out by strangers on the street who were so overcome by the sight of a child in jeans that they lost all self-control. It happens when men want to humiliate, control and degrade a woman. Often the man will already know the woman - or even be married to or living with him. It wouldn't matter what the woman wore, because this boils down to particular men believing they have the right to violate and control women. And as a society we should not be blaming the victims for this.

I agree that the girls were blameless, that the teacher gave entirely the wrong response and that the boys should have kept their hands to themselves.
I have seen and heard very inappropriate behaviour towards visiting groups of foreign students in this country from young men. It seems to be that if they are foreign, the usual boundaries sometimes don't seem to exist for some teenagers, possibly because there is unlikely to be a consequence.
The assault happens, the girls go home distressed.
My cousin was assaulted on a NY subway escalator, she subsequently knocked him down it. She was wearing tight jeans and a baggy sweater.
It's never OK to grope or slap someone you have no relationship with whatsoever. My teenagers know that, as do their friends.

Are you sure the teacher said it was the students' own fault because of what they were wearing or was that your children's/your interpretation? Can't you check with the teacher first before you write to the school.

What is a Royalty costume Jali.

Kate Middleton (as was) wears skinny jeans. Pippa was in a full length dress but her behind was plastered over every newspaper and magazine in the world. Diana was photographed in a swimming costume (IIRC).

Or are you expecting 14 year old girls to go out in tweed skirts and headscarves, like dear Lizzie?

Agree very much with the posters who intend to teach their DS's that it's not okay to touch up girls and blame their clothes. Sexual assault is nothing to do with someones outfit and everything to do with the control and violence and humiliation.

Inertia, if you make your house look unattractive then it does reduce the chance of crimes of great loss being committed against it, but it invites a different level of trouble all together, a scumbag chancer will see a window of opportunity and go for it, even if they get nothing of great value, whereas the more money you spend making your house look nicer, investing more in making it comfortable, buying nice things, it will attract the attentions of a different kid of thief, someone who will spend time collecting information, target you specifically and the value of the loss is often mote significant.

Essentially no-one ( as you said ) is safe from a determined burglar.

Exactly. I'm happy to tel Jari exactly what I was wearing when raped as a teenager, but I'm sure I'll be told I was wearing a costume, or didn't have enough locks on, or something...confused...

Anyway, most rapes etc aren't about sex they're about power, so dress has little to do with that.

That's a good point ninky nonker, perhaps the women who have been sexually assaulted/abused and raped should list their clothing for jarl to decide whether it was deserved or not... Then we should get some men on the thread to find out what really does switch them from being reasoning individuals to sexually depraved monsters... It shall be the only way to protect our daughters!

Well, there are clearly 2 solutions:

1. Tell all German teenage boys not to pinch teenage girls' bums

1. Tell the girls in your charge to wear different clothes to reduce the chance.

Which of these might work I wonder?

And given the teacher was young and female I'd assume she may have a good idea about which may work.

And yes in an ideal world that would not be the case, but When In Rome and all that...... ( actually Rome would be far worse....)

To all those frothing here, put yourself in the position of the teacher - she has to do something that works in a foreign country as it is, not fulminate about the world as it would ideally be.

How sad that you see option (1) as absurd, whatmeworry.

These ridiculous men and boys people are frothing about are sons, husbands, fathers....sad some have such a low opinion if them. But equally are perpetuating it by letting men off the hook because it is the woman/girl's fault...she must have dine something wrong, surely?

That makes no sense, too early...

Option one sounds good to me.

And if this woman is adult an experience enough to teach classrooms of teenagers, tale a group abroad and manage their behaviour, then I would expect that she have the skills to ensure her charges wellbeing and also to be able to deliver a message of not accepting being sexually assaulted by any person.

If she us unable to do those things exactly how would she deal with the disclosure of sexual abuse? Which is a distinct possibility in the field she has chosen to work within.

Whatmeworry - if only there were some kind of nationwide education system , where responsible, professionally qualified adults could educate children about how society works, and appropriate standards of behaviour...

iPod auto correct and not my bad spelling (honest)

Whatmeworry - actually I'd expect her to do as she would do in the UK and reassure the girls, then contact the girls' parents, then find a member of staff who spoke fluent German, if she didn't, and offer to make a complaint to the police. What would you expect a teacher to do if this had happened in the UK? Germany is hardly at the opposite end of the cultural spectrum to us.

Yes, wearing skimpy clothing might get you unwarranted attention. I myself have often been known to nudge a companion and stare at a woman wearing what I consider to be inappropriate or outrageous clothing, but I wouldn't feel that I have the right to even go up to her and comment upon it, never mind grope her. Attention is one thing and yes, if you don't want to be stared at then wear something else, but nothing makes sexual assault the woman's fault.

I think I meant that people are so quick to say "well, they're men, they can't help themselves" etc, but I would bet money that if you were to say "well, ok then, would you feel happy it your husband/partner/son/brother/dad behaved like this?" the response would be a pretty hasty "oh well he wouldn't etc etc". Implying it is actually something to be ashamed of.

So who are all these men that think this is an appropriate way to behave? I've never met one. (Bar one notable exception perhaps.)

Did i read that correctly? Jarl said

"young women are going to carry on being raped for no good reason"

No good reason!! Well fuck me, I think that shows your opinion on the balance of boundaries very well.

Just to be clear, women will continue to be raped while there are rapists around. There is no other reason, good or otherwise.

'1. Tell all German teenage boys not to pinch teenage girls' bums'

Difficult for the teacher to do that if the girls are out and about instead of in a gaggle, but she should have given them the encouragement and freedom to yell a more assertive response to being molested. If they were actually with her, then she should have responded very firmly to the lads.

A few years back, I took a crocodile of young children through London, many of them were nervous about being in the city. So I explained the purpose of the crocodile before we started, that no one gets lost and that everyone stays safe in a group.
As we trotted through the streets, one of the children said 'We're the head of the crocodile' I said yes, and he followed up happily with 'And you're the teeth'
Exactly.

How sad that you see option (1) as absurd, whatmeworry

I said unlikely to work, not absurd.

Off you all go then and lecture German teen boys....I wish you luck.

I'd love to see what you all would actually do. It's one thing to armchair froth, it's a totally different thing to have a group of teenage girls in another country.

I am frankly aghast at attitudes on here. It makes me depressed.

Of course these girls did nothing wrong. The boys and the teacher, however, did do something wrong.

Anyone on here who says otherwise should be ashamed - it's dragging feminism back 50 years, it really is.

Oh and skinny jeans and leggings are not 'skimpy' clothes. Tiny mini skirts and crop tops/ bra tops are skimpy clothes though wearing these would not in anyway warrant verbal or physical assault.

'What would you expect a teacher to do if this had happened in the UK?'

This happens frequently in the UK, I've personally observed it in at least 4 different cities with visiting groups of European language students.

Please, can 1 person explain HOW you hold the following two mindsets in your brain without issues:

1. You expect to be able to dress like a slut (or whore, if you prefer) and treated with the same respect and dignity as if you weren't
2. You lock your car/house because you don't want to get robbed

Still waiting.

Let me use another example.

What do you teach your DS about flashing the cash in a rough area late at night? "don't do it, you don't want to attract attention to yourself". Compare that to what you teach your DD who goes out to the same area late at night... "wear whatever you want, you have the right to". Your DD has the right to dress like that just as your DS has the right to walk around with £20's hanging out his pocket. But you don't encourage your DS to do that, do you?

And just as not showing off the fact you've got a lot of money to everyone doesn't guarantee you won't get mugged, dressing modestly doesn't mean you wont get raped. Especially if you're not talking about random strangers as the OP was originally about but are now talking about abusive partners.

And i'm really not saying rape and sexual assault are acceptable parts of our society. but instead of pretending they don't exist, why not take steps to avoid it, just as you lock your house and tell DS not to flash cash in a rough area.