To be hopping mad about this?

[ParisTravelodge]

My Dds (twins aged 14), have just returned from a school trip to Germany.

Whilst there, they and other girls in the group had their bums felt/slapped by German boys of 17/18 yrs.
This happened frequently in markets, shopping centres etc.
They were all horrified by this, and told a female teacher in her 20s, who told the girls it was their own fault for wearing skinny jeans and leggings!

Am writing letter to school about it.
A friend suggested I am overeacting to cultural differences, and the girls should be flattered!
Tbh I am angry at teacher's response mostly.
What do you think?
Has anyone else experienced this?

What SGM and TheFestiveWife said.

Some of the attitudes on this thread, towards both male and female, are disgusting.

OP YANBU Complain to the school about this teacher's disgraceful attitude.

Those who are saying the girls are at fault for their clothing, do know that sexual assault isn't always about lust don't they? That often it is about power, and that clothing is irrelevant.

What if it had been middle aged men in business suits doing the slapping? Or a homeless person? Or an OAP? Would you still view it as the girls fault?

I am just wondering whether the "boys will be boys" attitude extends across all of society in your eyes.

"the girls should be flattered..."

Yes, girls should be grateful for sexual assault, because if you don't get sexually assaulted, that means you're ugly, doncha know?

Bloody hell. Have I inadvertantly time travelled to the Victorian era?

And what's all this "slut" nonsense? What exactly is a slut? A woman who enjoys sex? A woman who has multiple sex partners? How many partners do you have to have to be considered a slut?

It's a horrible pejorative term for a woman who exercises her sexual choice, and is designed to make us feel sexually ashamed.

I'd say that kind of behaviour is quite unusual in Germany, I'm surprised actually, also at the teachers response. Very surprised.

Thank god the second half of this thread has seen some sense. The first half was making me

Wondering what you expected the teacher to do about it...

"Rent a royalty costume for a day, walk round town centre. You'll get treated differently because you look like royalty."

Hahaha, you first, Jari- you'll get treated differently alright; but not because you look like royalty

OneHandFlapping, I'm not certain, but it would appear that 'a slut' is someone who it's ok to sexually assault because they have previously engaged in consensual sexual activity. Oh, and they appear to have some sort of uniform, so it's easy to spot who deserves to be sexually assaulted and who doesn't.

Seems pretty straightforward.

"flattered"!!!!! Crikey, I cannot believe that comment from your friend OP! Just absolutely gobsmacked at that!

yes people should be allowed to wear what they like, whether they be girls, men, builders, firemen whatever

yes people should be allowed to leave their brand new bike left unlocked outside the pub

yes people should be allowed to leave their laptop in the front garden while they go in for a poo

unfortunately what should happen and what does happen are two different things. Personal responsibility MUST play a part

Cultural differences???? Germany????

I live in Germany, and have NEVER been groped in a public place!! Well, except by DP who is admittedly German

FeebleFeenie: yes people should be allowed to wear what they like, whether they be girls, men, builders, firemen whatever

yes people should be allowed to leave their brand new bike left unlocked outside the pub

yes people should be allowed to leave their laptop in the front garden while they go in for a poo

unfortunately what should happen and what does happen are two different things. Personal responsibility MUST play a part

So taking this argument to its logical conclusion it is sensible to 'secure' your 'property' against someone 'helping themselves' to it? In the case of a woman's body how would I go about this to you know stop those poor unfortunate males from helping themselves? The good old lock in the form of a chastity belt perhaps? Or maybe it's better to use the equivalent of locking the property in the boot out of sight and disguise the woman's body as something else...

Yep, because only women who make a show of themselves get attacked, obviously.

Erm, not blame the girls perhaps Loopy? It is her response the OP is angry at, and the message it gives...understandably.

But Feeble, and others, the reason that, I believe, most people would be outraged if a 14 year old boy was sexually assaulted by a man in the street, no matter what he was wearing, is not because a man might not feel equally moved to assault a boy, but because we have a cultural assumption that it would never be ok for him to do that.

Why do we not make the same assumption with regard to women and girls, that it is never ok for them to be sexually assaulted? And we know that what counts as 'sexually provocative' clothing varies from one culture to another, so it might be seen as very different in, for example, a country where most women are usually veiled.

Which makes me think that it's not how alluring a woman looks, that a man just can't resist her, it's whether shes wearing the uniform of the 'good girl' or the 'bad girl'. And 'bad girls' lose any right to not be assaulted, insulted, raped etc.

Which is WHY it's so damaging for us to go along with that, to AGREE that depending on how they are dressed, some women are partly responsible for men attacking them. Because if WE agree with that, why wouldnt those men carry on thinking that's true, that those 14 year olds are asking for it?

YANBU. Lived in Germany for a few years and this was definately not the norm. Girls there dress in skinny jeans all the time and in the very broadest generalisation, teenagers were a lot more respectful than their British counterparts.

Now I've left Germany almost 7 years ago, but in my time, bum feeling or slapping was not normal behaviour.

Good grief - the teacher's response is so inadequate it is staggering. There have been loads of surveys showing young people have frightening attitudes to assault and rape - I'd imagine the teacher, in her 20s, is an example of this.

Definitely complain, Paris - the school must not be allowed to give girls the message that assault is just something they should expect and put up with.

It's all very well going on about how young girls have the right to wear what they want, it is outragous that they got their bums touched, men should be able to not go around sexually assaulting women yadda yadda, but this is the real world.

This sort of thing happens, it is by no means uncommon. When I was 14 I wore fairly grungy type clothes as was the fashion at the time (think doc martens and long black cardigans) , and I remember plenty of young men touching my arse or more likely saying things they shouldn't be saying to someone who is clearly underage or close to it. It happens all over the place, in many cities where there is anonymity.

I can't believe that on a website full of women it is coming as such a shock that random men pinch arses. The only thing we can do is teach our young girls on how to deal with unwanted attention and to keep themselves safe.

I don't have a dd so I can only begin to imagine how horrible it would be to have to have a converstaion with my child about how to deal with sexual attention, but it is something that I strongly feel needs to be the focus of this debate.

It does sound odd tbh. I would certainly query with the school, but also check exactly what was said and how. If it was "well it's your own fault", that would be quite different to "that's awful, might be best to keep your coat on, and a long top". Not ideal, but perhaps the best that a young fairly inexperienced teacher in a foreign country could manage on the spur of the moment.

I took a group of teenage girls on a school trip to Italy. A few (including two German girls, as it happens) wore revealing clothes for the first couple of days. I had to tell them to tone it down as a) I was responsible for their safety (although I also believe that you ought to be able to wear what you like, sadly girls with skimpy clothes are seen as 'targets') and b) we were visiting a lot of churches etc. and eyebrows were being raised. Now, this wasn't a case of skinny jeans, but tiny shorts/skirts and tights (in winter).
I echo what the poster above said about asking what exactly was said. In my situation, I certainly didn't say or mean that the shouts the girls were getting were their fault, but that, in order to be less conspicuous, I'd prefer them to wear more clothing. Is that wrong?

Glad some people agree with me.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning random arse slapping and I don't think it's ever right for women to be sexually assaulted. But people get mugged, houses get robbed, and people get physically assaulted for no good reason every day of the year. I'd rather have my arse slapped than be mugged, and I doubt many of you would disagree.

Please, can 1 person explain HOW you hold the following two mindsets in your brain without issues:

1. You expect to be able to dress like a slut (or whore, if you prefer) and treated with the same respect and dignity as if you weren't
2. You lock your car/house because you don't want to get robbed

Because number 2 implies awareness that the world is not a perfect place and there are nasty people in it, so you take steps to mitigate the risk. But number 1 implies that everyone is perfect and showing your boobs & bum off is just fine because no-one will take that the wrong way.

If you're so confident everyone is a lovely person then leave your house unlocked. If you lock your house, it's probably because you're aware that there are some nasty people out there who will do some nasty things to you. And just like locking your door isn't 100% going to prevent you from being robbed, dressing modestly isn't 100% going to stop you being raped. And leaving your door unlocked doesn't mean you're definitely going to get robbed, nor does dressing like a slut mean you will be raped. But, if I didn't want people to assume I wanted to have sex, there are certain clothes that I wouldn't wear.

But until this stupid attitude of "I can do what I like, it's my personal freedom, hahaha" is abolished then young women are going to carry on being raped for no good reason. And if you tell your DD that it's her freedom to dress how she likes, then she tells you she got sexually assaulted, you should probably direct a fairly sizeable chunk of the anger you will then feel directly onto yourself. But you won't. You'll blame horrible evil men with no self control, because it's easier.

Grow up and take personal responsibility for your behaviour. Because there are people in the world who will rape you if they think they can get away with it. And they'll do the same to your DD. And DS. And that's just life and there's nothing you can do about it. So just like you lock your house and car, take precautions with your body.

um

please could you define dressing modestly, please jarl

thank you

OP YANBU-this post is making me furious!

• thread even

I understand what Jari is saying it's not much of a reach to get to the message she's giving.
She doesn't agree that girls should have their bums slapped in any way shape or form.
All she's saying is that clothes that women wear will get a reaction that's negative from certain men.
BTW OP you are right to be annoyed.