Nanny turned into Nanny for hell and a nutter (long sorry)

[scrummummy]

Have posted in childcare but thought I'd get more traffic here. Help

My DH sacked the nanny on wed, it was a last straw type moment. Many things led up to it ie taking them to her house every day, not telling who the children were coming into contact with and only find out from DD1 (5) or what DD2(3) said (ish). Going to McD every day and buying them chocolate and ice cream (ice cream is health cos it contains calcium was the answer) every day, even though we specifically asked for this not to happen. Slightly more important was late taking to and picking up for school (sometimes 30mins - 1hour late take and pick up). Finally, last two straws, spent Tuesday in hairdressers get hair cut coloured and washed with DD2 in the buggy for the whole time. Last straw, was on Wednesday left the house with no keys, didn't inform me until 1 hour before school pick-up - to my yahoo email while I was at work didn't phone my mobile or work number, didn't phone DH mobile or work number, I was lucky I checked my email during my late lunch. I immediately phoned her repeatedly with no answer. So left work to get to school for pick up, called DH, he left work cos I asked him to sack her there and then, so that she couldn't make up excuses and try to talk me out of it, he's strong at this than me.

Thanks if you've read this far, this is now when the "fun" starts.

She had left her bike at our house. My DH told her to come and collect it in an hours time, giving me the opportunity to get home and calm down. She didn't come and collect it. That evening DH rung her ask when she was going to collect the bike and she said the following day.

I'm at home the following day to look after DD1 & 2 as we now no-longer have child care. I asked DH to put the bike outside in front gated garden so I wouldn't have to talk to her when she turned up to collect it.At lunchtime I saw someone who looked very much like her take the bike.

Following day DH is at home looking after the children and a Taxi arrives, driver says he's come to collect a bike, DH says its been taken. Next DH gets a call from the police, making an enquiry on behalf of the Nanny as to where her bike is. While this is going on at home I'm getting email's demanding money for the bike. DH explains to the Police Officer that the bike was taken the previous day, by he assumed the Nanny.

Overnight I get more and more weirder emails demanding more money for the bike as DH has either stolen it or put it in the bin, like the keys she claimed she couldn't find (we have three sets of keys on the mantelshelf, for her to take).

So after reading the overnight emails, DH contacts the police to discuss the matter. Later today a Police Sargent turns up at the door asking for the bike, DH invites him in shows that we have no bike, goes over all of the above with the PS. Show him the emails, PS talks to the Nanny (who has given him a different story) comes back to us and tells us that he has explained to her that there is (in his words) no case to answer and will only file an incident report and sends her on her way.

So WTF do we do if she turns in to a "From Hell" nanny as we have a new nanny starting in Jan and we are worried that she might do something reckless.

Help/ word of wisdom has any one dealt with a situation similar to this?
Can tell you more about the madness if you want to have more shits and giggle

It's people like this that give nannying a bad name. Anyone can call themselves a nanny and look for work, there's no governing body even OFSTED doesn't go beyond the volentary register. I think nannies need some sort of register or something, although it would be difficult to implement and be open to abuse (having worked for some people with no problem bad-mouthing me to prospective employers).

As a proffesional nanny, I would never EVER get a haircut or anything during work hours! Even if kids are at playdates etc and not in my care I am available to them. When working, everything I do is for the children- I meet friends if they have charges or their own children of similar ages to mine. I'm not a parent, I'm someone who is employed to provide parental care yet still be an employee. I'm not in charge! The parents dictate what they want me to do and I work around their requirements.

When I was growing up we had a nanny for a short period who sounds very much like OP's (she took us out for 'trips' to the bank, bookies etc) she kicked up a lot of fuss when parents sacked her but actually it amounted to nothing. Most of the nannies we had over the years were fab but not all go into it for the right reasons. I was discussing it with my mum not long ago as we are looking into childcare options when we move and DS's nursery (which is fab) won't be flexible enough.
I hope you get it sorted soon.
I never understand the nanny = posh equation but probably because I was brought up in a house where both parents worked their butts off and needed childcare in an area distinctly lacking in other options.

Childminders run their own business. Nannies are employees and are a domestic servant. I'm a nanny, I am in effect a modern day servant. I don't have a problem with that, it's like any job where you have a boss - someone else can tell you what to do.

Anyone can call themselves a nanny, it's up to parents to decide who is and who isn't suitable to do the job. It's like many jobs I suspect, you hire someone and then manage them until you know how capable they are at the job and how much management they need.

Sounds to me as though this particular individual didn't really understand what their job was, what was reasonable for them to do (getting their hair done during working time is not a normal part of the job), how critical their timekeeping was (regularly not picking a child up from school on time is unacceptable).

If it comes to it buy her a second hand bike back (thats what she lost). It does sound as though she's trying to pull a fast one though. I can't believe you didn't sack her the 1st time she was late to school though Xx

Assuming she was on a trial period you can sack her instantly.

No you can't Fabby.

Sounds like what you most need is peace of mind now. Change the locks regardless, pay up any holidays etc that you owe and make a decision over the bike when the police get back to you with more info.

New Nanny, new crystal clear rules.

"Anyone can leave their tot in a pram while having their hair done, obviously you use common sense to determine whether they're tired at that point, and likely to relax and nap, take toys and snacks."

Haircuts and dentists during working hours are possible for nannies in certain situations. eg my nanny needed to go to GP, we discussed that ok for her to take DS2 (aged 8 months) with her rather than me taking time off work. But she checked with me, and it was appropriate as DS2 so small, the GP so local and because it couldn't be done at the weekend (like a haircut). Haircut would be ok perhaps with a baby who sleeps in the pram each morning (if it was discussed) and was at the time the baby was asleep, hair colouring not ok as it takes so long.

Being late even once without a good reason would have been enough for dismissal though, totally irresponsible.

Katie - you pretty much can sack instantly when someone has less than one year of service so long as it is not for a discriminatory reason and all sums due under the contract has been paid.

Until an employee has one year of service (or around 50 weeks in some instances due to a quirk in calculating notice in the employments right act 1996 which we dint need to get in to for these purposes) an employee generally does not gave a right to make an unfair dismissal claim. It's really important that small employers are made aware of this very important right and can use it to their advantage if needs be.

Out of interest, the government is considering extending this period to 2 years

No need to patronise me grape. As I said up thread I have a qualification in employment law and I'm a regular poster in employment issues where you'll see I have a thorough understanding of unfair dismissal legislation. If you are up to date you will know that the government is no longer considering but has decided to implement the minimum 2 years.

There is a difference between immediate dismissal and dismissal with notice. We don't know if notice has been paid. From memory a standard NannyTax contract has one week's notice from either party for the first month. Thereafter it is one month or 4 weeks (I forget which) notice from either party.

While it is true a tribunal will look at what the outcome would be had proper process been followed, the reality is that defending a case at tribunal is extremely stressful and potentially costly. Not necessarily in settlement costs but the costs incurred from getting advice and time off work to attend meetings and hearings etc. The OP has also had a difficult year with her health and could no doubt do without the stress of a tribunal case hanging over her for months, whether the claim is for unfair or wrongful dismissal.

Katie - the whole point is that the nanny has no claim for unfair dismissal. She doesn't have the requisite service. I haven't cast any aspersions on your qualifications and frankly I'm not really bothered what or where you have posted previously What I do want to make sure is that this poster has proper advice. It is s matter of fact and law that she does not have the requisite on year of service - hence no unfair dismissal claim. Whether notice is given or not does not affect that. As I have said above, the poster can argue that her behaviour amounted to a breach of contract - hence no notice payable.

She may very well bring a claim for unfair dismissal without the requisite service loads of claimants do. However as she doesn't gave the requisite service it will fail. Whether the poster has written letters to her or not or had a disc hearing or not.

himy, have we read the same OP?!! This person was being paid to look after the OPs child when she decided to go and have her hair cut and coloured! WHAT?! You don't do that on your employers time in any other job do you? Not only that but being up to 30 mins late for school drop off or pick up is not a small thing at all. As a one off in extreme circumstances it is acceptable but as a routine thing it is totally unacceptable. This woman is not working as volunteer fgs!

Wow.surely it would just be easier to look after your own kids?-how do you know the next nanny wont be a "psycho" too?

you dont. If you employ a stranger to care for your kids, you have absolutely no idea if they are nuts or not

I want a nanny :-p

I can imagine they'd need close monitering to gain trust, and close management.
Most nannies I've seen are young gap year students

Where have I said she has a case for unfair dismissal? I said she may have a case for unfair dismissal up the thread but it would depend how long the nanny has worked there. This was prior to the OP saying how long the nanny had been employed. If you can't be bothered to read what I wrote perhaps you could cease from trying to teach me to suck eggs?

I don't actually think you are a lawyer. No employment lawyer I know makes sweeping statements without getting all the facts and even then it's all framed with "maybe" "possibly" "potentially".

The OP can dismiss as per the contract or she can terminate the contract for gross misconduct. She cannot do a bit of one process and a bit of another.

At the moment there is not enough information to know if the nanny could bring a wrongful dismissal claim for not having enough notice paid or a breach of contract claim for failing to follow the disciplinary process as outlined in the employment contract. If there is an issue it could potentially be resolved by paying the money due under the terms of the contract and writing to explain exactly what the money is and why it has been paid.

But this all depends on the OP's particular circumstances, of which we do not know enough. Certainly the final straw of forgetting keys does not on the face of it look strong enough to be gross dismissal.

That post was to grape btw.

The end of the last sentence should read strong enough to be gross misconduct worthy of dismissal.

Er, the thing is KatieMistletoe, grape is an employment lawyer and you're not, so let's just leave it there, eh?

Lots of sympathy to the OP. It sounds horrendous, particularly when you've been undergoing recent treatment for breast cancer (which no-one else seems to have picked up on). I doubt that the nanny has a leg to understand on, though I can see that it's a very scary situation. Perhaps the moral is always to use an agency when recruiting nannies?

Erm, hackmum grape says she is an employment lawyer. I am qualified to give employment law advice as it happens. So why not mind your own business? We're all trying to help the OP.

I actually think it this situation its not really about what the nanny is legally entitled to but rather getting her to sign a compromise agreement in return for the money for the bike.

A compromise agreement is going to cost £££. Much more than the value of the bike. I would not think that's a good idea as someone else has already explained up the thread. I would probably let the nanny take me to small claims over the bike.

The bigger issue is the potential for the nanny to make a claim. She doesn't sound the most rational and stable person so I'd think this is the bigger worry.

But wasn't the bike left in the place where the nanny always left it herself?

yes.

Katie - I am an employment lawyer. As I've said before, I've not cast any aspersions on your qualifications and i'll keep my own counsel on them. Suffice to say, you're clearly some self appointed mumsnet employment law expert. However, I'm afraid I don't agree with your analysis of the situation and I'm quite entitled to make that point - whether you like that or not. This is a public forum. The op was very clear from early on that the nanny had only worked for her for around 10 weeks.

Op - I hope you get things sorted out. As I've said above, it would be an idea to speak to acas if you want another opinion. They're very helpful and can confirm the position. I think hopefully things will die down and you won't hear further. However, if you do get an employment tribunal claim from her, definitely seek advice then. Again, acas can help. As I've said above, the most likely claim is some kind of breach of contract claim so she could actually try and raise that in the county court.