To think that many sahms don't consider the long-term implications when deciding to give up work? ***this is not a sahm vs wohm debate***

[wannaBe]

This is not a thread criticizing anyone or their decisions...

When I decided to give up work to bring up DS, I did so in the knowledge that for me, staying at home with my dc was the best thing. We were fortunate as well in that financially we could afford for me to stay at home.

Back then, I had in mind that we would have two children, so realistically would have at least eight years at home until the youngest started school, and even then, going back to work wouldn't necessarily be something I would consider as would want to be there for after school/holidays etc, and finding a job that fits in with the above is almost impossible.

So, fast forward nine years and the two children we'd planned to have turned out to only be one, and I've been a sahm for that long, although I have done volunteering in that time (reading/helping in school/chair of governors/PTA etc...) so haven't been sat on my arse as such (although the amount of time I've spent on mn does contradict that statement somewhat, )

Now I'm in a position where I want to go back to work. Actually, I've been in that position for about the past 1.5/2 years but due to circumstances such as moving areas etc have only just been able to start exploring the possibility seriously.

And I've come to a realization which, although I guess I knew deep down, I never contemplated until now. Even if you take the fact that there are very few jobs for far too many applicants in the current climate, the one thing that employers seem to want above anything else is experience, and current experience at that.

And if you haven't worked for a number of years then the reality is that they will take the person who has worked more recently, every time. And as employers currently have the pick of applicants (regardless of who you are) the chances of getting a job in the current climate if you've been bringing up your children for the past however many years is minimal.

So what I've basically realized is that being a sahm has made me unemployable.

I don't regret my decision for a second. You can't ever get that time with your children again and I'm glad that I had that opportunity and took it.

But in retrospect I do wonder whether I should have sought even a part time work opportunity sooner - even if it was something minimal.

And equally I realize that you can't tell someone who is just choosing to give up work to be with their children that they may find that they're unemployable ten years down the line when the kids are at school and they want to go back to work again without seeming like you're criticizing their decision/lifestyle.

When we make decisions we often do so in the here and now, not necessarily with the future in mind - not for ourselves anyway.

I think employmentwise anyone who is currently out of work for any reason has it extremely hard anyway.

The thought of never working again for the next 30 years is frankly rather depressing...

I was really enjoying this thread until bonsoir and wordfactory got involved....now it's just boring.

Inmychime - not sir if it is a possibility language-wise etc.. where've it is you are moving to, but could you (when the time is right) study while you are there if you can't work, or do freelance or consulting work related to your profession, which doesn't count as employment?

If your DH is earning well while abroad, and you are having to give up work to accompany him (you are giving up work, it's just that you happen to be on maternity leave right now...) it should be worth spending some money (e.g. On course fees and childcare) for you to keep up your skills and employability rather than just being bounced into becoming a SAHM if that is not your goal.

'scuse the appalling iPhone typing ... Not sure....wherever you are moving to

Inmy chime, I'm not sure where you are going as employment/training opportunities vary hugely, depending where you go and on the kind of company/contract your husband has been offered. The Permits Foundation is lobbying governments hard on behalf of women like you, with some success. I am the forty-something you describe and have had a very interesting and privileged expat life, moving reularly, with occasional part-time work in some countries.

It has been a great experience but as I am soon to be an empty-nester, I find I am not finally settled in one community and my friends are all over the World. It has good and bad sides, but I would suggest trying to keep a hand in employment in some way as many women at my stage of life, struggle.

There might well be ways round the visa situation. Get the company to put you in touch with a couple of working spouses and ask the company what they do to support you to keep your skills up to date and to get work. Many companies offer training and education allowances for example. It is in the company interest that you are happy and economically active if that is what you want and companies support the Permits Foundation financially because of this. Good luck.

Did anyone else read the recent Economist special report on women's employment, with a big focus on returning to work after children and the financial implications of childcare? (One of the articles is here: www.economist.com/node/21539925)

I believe that in Germany, many schools end at 2pm, which puts working parents in a particularly difficult position.

I was a SAHM for 13 years. I used to be a primary school teacher but as I was working on a temporary contract when I got pregnant, I didn't have a job to go back to after having ds1 (nor did I want to work.) Three kids later, when my youngest started school, I was more than ready to go back to work. I had done voluntary work in schools, and managed to get a TA job. I love working now, and I would say if you've been a SAHM for a long time don't give up, it doesn't necessarily mean you are unemployable.

GrendelsMum thanks for that article, very interesting, although as one of the commentators said, childcare is seen solely in relation to maternal income (i.e. does it 'pay' to work) and not parental income.

Pleased you found it interesting - I noticed that too and gave a little 'grrr', though tbf it is an attitude you very often see on MN too.

Thanks, Himalaya and volumnia: we're moving to the US (California) so the language won't be a barrier and I am allowed to study or volunteer so am considering that. I had actually planned to apply to a PhD program there but then discovered that US PhD programs take about 7(!!) years, compared to 3 years here in the UK . His company are very committed to ensuring spouses are happy if they relocate and at the interviews, they were very keen to make sure that I was on board for the move etc so help to find other opportunities should be available.

It's just a bit nerve-wracking to be facing into a situation where I literally am legally banned from working... for some women my situation would be a dream come true but I'm very conscious of the long-term implications of giving up work for more than a couple of years.

We'll see. I guess my main concern is being financially dependent on DH - he is absolutely not mean or controlling in any way and I know I can trust him but it's just my own hang-ups and feminist principles causing me bother!

I think this is true. The cost of child care is really high as is everything in the uk.
In the us you can get daycare for just under 2o pounds a day 8 till 6 .
Is it nearer 50 in the uk? That just makes it financially non viable for many.

Callerms .....

in response to your post that is not the point I was making, at all.
Clearly you do see less of your child growing up if you are working, that is fact.
My point is that I have made a distinct choice, to not return to work yet even though I accept this will cost me but I value the gain of being at home more than the cost. Others think differently and that is their choice and the fact is some people find it tedious being at home and so it costs them even more.
If I was in that boat I am sure I would have tried to return to work, but the gains are greater than the cost, for me.
Some people do indeed enjoy watching their young children develop less than others....I speak to them and they are often the sahm s who are not happy with it, and they should get good child care and return to work.

I do think there is a lot of self duping that goes on......as in people want to go back to work so try to justify that this is the best thing for their child, and actually it may simply be the best thing for that mother. That is okay but I find the lack of self honesty a bit tiring from people trying to justify their choice is superior.of course some people have no choice and it is a luxury to even have the choice.

Yanbu
I'm in the same position
I started my own business

Nonsense cherrysoda. I don't think working means that you 'enjoy seeing your children grow up less than sahms'. It simply means that you probably enjoy it just as much, but that you want to balance that with a work life too. It's entirely possible, for example, for a Mother working, say, 3 days a week, to value and cherish her days off and to get just as much out of them as a mum who is home 5 days.

You are signing up to the tired old argument that a parent who works must in some way be 'less good' or find it less enjoyable at being home . Or rather you think it about mothers not all parents- I bet you don't think it of your husband or whoever supports you!

Look- if you don't want to work, fine. Just accept that you are making that choice because YOU want to. Don't try to belittle other womans way of doing things by insinuating that perhaps they aren't as involved in raising their children or aren't as good at domestic stuff.

Your posts have made it quite clear your decision to stay at home has been what YOU want - eg 'i don't want to miss a moment' etc. So why, if a woman chooses to work, do you think they're self delusional and being selfish???? Your logic only applies if actually deep down you believe ALL mums should stay home and that working mums are bad for kids. If you genuinely believe that its up to indviduals whats best for their family, and then you wouldn't describe working women as selfish

You sound dangerously close to those women who are secretly a bit pissed off when the children of working parents turn out happy and confident and do well at school. Its almost like you want them to be not quite so emotionally in tune, or clever or confident so you can justify your choice !!

P.s. Even the language you use is very loaded - eg the 'price to pay' for going to work.
Many women don't feel they are paying a price. Eg I returned 3 days a week to work after dc1. I had 4 days a week at home, and 3 at work. Dc Was with a Lovely childminder for the 3 days. I felt just as bonded and happy as I would have done if id been home 7 days a week. I didn't miss out. Dc didn't miss out. What is the 'price to pay' there?! There is only a price in your mind if you are deciding that actually someone somewhere is missing out. I'd love you to tell me what I or my dc have 'missed'! Dc 1 is almost adult now. she doesn't feel shes missed out on anything- which is actually the most important thing

I've been enjoying this thread, please don't let it turn into a SAHM vs WOHM debate!

I see it from all sides at the moment- I know several 1st time mums, or those who have just had their 2nd who have just decided to become SAHMs. I also know several mums from preschool whose youngest DC are the same age as my DD1 (starting school in sept) who are trying unsuccessfully to find work after 5 or more years out of the workplace. But then they will only consider jobs that are school hours and term time, which is a bit defeatist imo!

Personally I loved being a SAHM to preschoolers but I didn't want to end up as a SAHM to teenagers which is why I started looking for another job wjen my youngest was 1. However childcare is tge biggest issue, if I wasn't working weekends we would not be able to afford it.

Personally I plan to use it as an excuse to convince my girls they need to live close by when they grow up so I can look after my grandkids while they work!

Entirely agree- it should not turn into a WOHM/ SAHM divide. But posts like cherrysodas aren't helpful as they assume a model of 'working outside the home means you / the child are missing out, and is therefore only ok if the mum is less happy at home'.
ENtirely possible to enjoy both!

Should be gertting ready for school but had to join in. I was in high flying career, went back after 6 months mat leave with both DSs 4 days per week, moved to less well paid, less pressured job 2 days per week in same field, when little one started school went up to 3.5 days and lots of flexibility. I am glad I di keep working as I hav been able ot keep professional career going, v difficult ot get back in after 5 or more years, and also what people forget is that as I am deisrable ot employers( i hope so anyway) i can dictate hours etc. Had I been out of the job market for 6 or 8 years - not unusual if you have 2 kids say 2/3 years apart - I would be the one wiht no power and would find it v hard to get flexibility. Also, keeping a good well paid job has meant we have been able to pay ove rthe odds for childcare thus gettign a lot of choice in terms of quality of applicant and also keeping them hapy - we like ot think we and kids are nice as well - so in 7 years we have only had 2 carers, thus giving DSs continuity. If yuo have been out for 6 years and then go back it is likely to be with either bad hours of poor pay or both and therefore childcare will be needed adn it will not be cheap. Personally I could not have given up work. My kids would have sufferd had I been at home all the time!At times juggling it all is hard but I konow as the kids get older some bits will get easier

very interesting debate

the only thing that bothers me when I read these threads is the assumption that SAHM's are there because their dh's/dp's earn a decent amount, sometimes thats so not true

me and dh were bother earning roughly £12-£14k when I had ds1 and I gave up most of it to earn £3k part time and was at home most of the week with the kids

after 12 years he now earns £20k and I earn £5k

the descision to stay at home was affected by many things, not all financial

we've always been pretty skint and it just irks me a bit when its always assumed mums stay at home as their dh earns enough to make it possible

even if it seems impossible, sometimes its doable by living very cheaply for yeras and years

dont know if I made the right choice, but it was the right choice for us at the time and continues to be so far

There were plenty of moments I'd have been happy to miss when the kids were growing up - the vomit, the wee on the carpet, the screaming tantrums.... I don't really feel these things enhanced my life!

at stopraining
I know what you mean and I am still having less than life enhancing moments now that they aree 15 and 12.
There are many days when I come home from work and take one look and would be quite happy to turn round and go back to work !!

Callerms.The orgininal post is asking about the implications for sahms, which they don't consider.
My point relates to the possible implications that working mothers may not consider- that many women regret seeing far less of their child developing if they are working.You do need to weigh it up and of course in the end it comes down to the desires of the mothers mainly- good for you that you have no regrets.
I see childminders and nannies daily and in my opinion whilst many are a safe pair of hands, many simply do not interact in the same invested way that I see many parents interacting with their children.Of course the child is unlikely to come to any harm but personally until my child is 3, unless I have to, I would rather be the predominant presence in their life, rather than a safe pair of hands.

There you go again... generously conceding that most children of working parents will probably be ok but with a clear subtext that actually, childminders and nurseries Aren't quite as good for a child as being with their mother all day.
Look- why not just accept that women- and men- choose to work for a variety of reasons, none of which are necessarily to do with being bored or not enjoying their children. And we don't all look back and regret not spending every second of every day in the company of our children. My eldest is 17. Do I look back and bemoan the fact that until she was 4 she spent 4 days a week with me' and 3 with a marvellous cm? No! More importantly does she regret it? No! My life would not have been any more enriched if I had stopped working.

Another point - for someone who is SAHM you purport to have a very in-depth (not to mention judgemental) knowledge of local cms and carers. Why not leave it to the people who use them to make the judgement of how good they are? For all you know, people could sit and have a cup of tea with you and judge your caring and interaction negatively. It's a meaningless and point scoring exercise. WOHPs invest a lot of time effort and money into who cares for their child.

Lastly - to return to the original point- yes, the op is about issues which a SAHM may not be conscious of in the short term but which are undeniably true- eg your pension will be affected if you stop work . You wont rise up the pay scales so far and you may find it very hard to re enter the workplace at an appropriate level when you wish to.

To try to 'balance'' that argument by making all sorts of claims that might or might not have any validity is a bit pointless. You are trying to 'balance'' hard fact with your supposition . If the vast majority of working parents had children who Bombed in their exams, or really lacked confidence socially or were emotionally scarred in some way- you would have a point. But thats not the case. In fact if you look at the hard facts again you'll probably find that children of working parents tend to do very well academically and in other measures when those parents are working in skilled or professional careers - which applies probably to most women who choose to return to work. If all working parents looked back and regretted their life then you'd also have a point- but they don't. Tbh the only people I've ever heard genuinely regretting not seeing enough of their children when they were young, have been the sole earner high flying husbands of SAHM!! Even in these cases, the husbands have a good relationship with their adult children, so it seems the negative is for the parent rather than the child. And yes thats sad- but is surely an argument for couples sharing the earning and caring responsibilities so that they both get to the end of their adult life feeling neither have missed out on caring or career.

all I know is if my preschoolers didn't have childminders or nurseries, they would never have picked up a glue stick or tub of glitter. I hate doing that stuff and am delighted and relieved that they get to do these crafts while in childcare.

oranges

I have done it all - been a SAHM, worked full time, worked part time. I accept that having twins and bringing my brood up to three prevented my career from blossoming in the way it should have done, but I have done okay and I can hold my head up, which IMO is the important thing, whatever your choices are.

May I pass on a tip for those of you who aren't happily following their chosen career and who are worried about not having the skills to return to the workplace. Find yourself a good friend and get together at least once a year, and preferably more, to agree and evaluate a set of targets for you both. The targets may cover all aspects of your life - close relationships, health and fitness, finance, education and training and career development. The targets may be long term or short term, but they should be aspirational and achievable.

I have been doing this with a close friend since we both had twins 9 years ago. We have obtained qualifications, secured employment, set up buisnesses, worked our way through family issues and health problems and, most importantly, supported and counselled one another throughout. This sort of focus keep all the skills that you had before finely tuned. For my own part, I can say that without this, my self esteem would have been in tatters and, surely, having good self esteem will be essential when you start applying for jobs again.