to despise lying to children?

[TimeWasting]

I hate that it's the main wondrous magical part of Christmas for them, about receiving stuff rather than giving and that it's a basic lie.

I think it makes Christmas shit.

birds

"If you think the Santa thing is LYING, then do you let them read fiction? because on that basis, that's all lies as well. Narnia, Neverland, Wonderland, Grandpa in my Pocket- just a big pack of lies!"

I can see what you mean, but I think it's very different. I'm not planning to tell my DS that Santa is "real", because I remember how disturbing I found the 'fib' as a child.

Your parents tell you that they love you. They teach you that cat is spelled C.A.T. They teach you that your heart pumps blood around the body. Then they tell you that Santa brings you presents with a sleigh, and also a magical baby was born in Bethlehem and was the son of God. You trust them to give you the absolute truth because you have no other way. You place all of these facts on the same 'plane' of truth.

Later you find out that Santa was an out-and-out pretense for your amusement, and as far as baby Jesus being the saviour of mankind, they say "Oh, we sort of believe it. Well, not literally. Well, we went to Church once... some people believe it. It's a cultural thing."

Perhaps I was just a very dull, serious child, but the appeal of this was lost on me.

Oh see, give it long enough and they all start coming out of the woodwork. Come and sit next to birds scarlett and me inpraise

I think that you believe that your parents know everything when small, then you start school and parents don't like it because it switches to the world according to Miss x, then friends become more important.

Hopefully by 8yrs they start questioning everyone and everything-starting with their parents. By then they ought to have worked out that their parents don't know everything and actually they can have a mind of their own and don't have to think what they are told to think. It is a natural progression.

If they are continuing to think that their parents are right and correct on everything I dare say they get upset! I always find it surprising that a 10yr old hasn't worked out that it is impossible to have a kindly gent from the north pole whizzing around the world delivering to all children! It is general to question it from a much earlier age. I think that parents are doing them a favour by getting them to question things.

"This won't hurt"
"Mmmm! Sprouts!"
"That was really good!"

And 101 other lies parents tell children.

Sprouts are fucking ace, what you on about.

Glad to be of service, valium. I'll be over in a minute

My DS1 is at an interesting age (6.5) - we both know that he really knows there's no such thing as Santa, because although I've never said it outright, or even been cynical about it in front of him, I have just never perpetuated or reinforced the myth ... so he's just worked it out for himself, or never really believed, or something. I don't know. But he chooses to play along with it for now, which is absolutely fine with me. I think probably next year I'll need to have the conversation with him about not spilling the beans to others, but I'm playing it by ear for now.

This is where one person's truth isn't anothers- and who is to say who is right? I love sprouts, they are one of my favourite vegetables!

I think that 'it won't hurt' is quite different. It isn't something that I would do.

I would however tell them sprouts are lovely-they are lovely!

Good points by exotic: it is healthy and normal for children to gradually start questioning their parents and this is a process that should have started by the beginning of junior school. I often wonder if the "keep their innocence so as not to ruin their childhood"-school of parent is not partly influenced by a fear of losing their position as sole purveyor of the truth.

I don't think any of the Santa/tooth fairy/Easter bunny revelations came as a shock to my dcs; they already were aware that for any statement of mine there are a number of options:

mummy can be wrong (dd worked this out around age 2)

mummy sometimes likes to play (and no doubt there was something in my tone of voice that signalled fun and play-acting rather than scientific fact)

mummy can be right

mummy might not know whether she is wrong or right (though less likely in the Santa case, evidently)

None of the above spoiled their pleasure.

As for commercialism, surely it is up to you as an individual family to show your dcs whether you are thinking most about the value of your presents or how you can improve other people's lives by charitable donations/helpfulness to neighbours and family at Christmas time If you want your children to have non-materialistic ideals, you need to model them on a larger scale; just moaning about what Christmas is "like" these days gets you nowhere: Christmas is whatever you make it.

I didn't believe everything my parents told me as a child: I could tell from my mother's tone of voice that there was a difference between "this is the letter B" and "you are really a troll cub that I found under a spruce tree".

It seems to me some people are overthinking this and being a bit too serious.
Surely it shouldn't really be such a big issue

My DD believes in FC and Jesus and the Nativity. She also believes in the Gruffalo and Goldilocks and the 3 bears. I assume that eventually she will come to understand that they are stories - I don't see any need to sit down with her and tell her implicitly that they are a pack of lies - surely most children will come to that realisation of the distinction between reality and stories all by themselves?

I remember aged about 8 asking my dad if FC was real, and him saying something complicated about how FC was the spirit of giving at Christmas and in that sense was real, but it wasn't an actual man, how could it be. Which I think reinforced what I had been thinking myself, so I was happy with that. I'm glad he waited until I asked. What's wrong with letting children realise things in their own time?

What's wrong with letting children realise things in their own time?

Nothing, it's the insisting and going to great lengths to ensure kids think FC is real I have a problem with.

I understand a reluctance to lie, especially to your own children, but I do feel it's one of the magical stories of Christmas. I think getting hold of a copy of "The night before Christmas" and reading it with your children maybe on Christmas Eve might help you as it did me. We celebrate all the Christmas stories by reading them or watching versions on telly, or taking part in Nativity plays at school or local church. I think they are a very important part of Christmas. Our lives are richer with story and culture than just with materialism !

So, We read "The night before Christmas"
Read and/or watch "A Christmas carol" (The Scrooge story)
Celebrate the Christmas story by taking part in the Crib service at local church - last year DS was a very funny donkey, galloping along the aisles energetically on all fours
Open windows in our advent calendar throughout December
Host the nativity figures for a couple of nights during advent as they journey around the parish ( posh name for this is Posada)
Watch "The snow-man"
Watch the Christmas movie set in Central Square, New York (I forget the name but watched it with DS the other evening)
Listen to Christmas Carols every day on Classic FM and usually go carol singing at some point.

I try to help them gradually understand that the Santa story is just that, a magical story.
The Christmas story - well that's a special Christmas story that some people believe is true.

I couldn't care less what other people tell their children or not.

What I don't like is this idea that letting children believe in Santa is lying to them and therefore wrong. Or that children who believe in Santa only think about what they get rather than understanding the whole idea of Christmas.

Father Christmas (in this house at least) fits in very nicely with the rest of our Christmas celebration including the important (to us) going to church and understanding the real story behind Christmas.

I agree juggling we do all of the same things you do - we just don't tell ds it is true.

Oh lordy, I get accused of overthinking things a lot on MN.
Thinking a lot about things will do no harm, same can't be said for underthinking.

Good call on A Christmas Carol, don't think the mythical figures show up in that at all do they?

Cory, trolls have cubs? Good to know.

"Christmas is whatever you make it" - agree with that Cory

Helpful too when I'm feeling so broke this year

What I don't like is this idea that letting children believe in Santa is lying to them and therefore wrong.

Sirzy, I really don't think any of us on here think that. I let my kids believe if they want - they'll realise in their own time. The laissez-faire attitude is key here, I think!

What we DON'T approve of, if I can speak for valium etc, is the DELIBERATE lying to children, with the sole purpose of misleading them into thinking that the story of Santa is the absolute truth. Actively lying, rather than being passively non-committal about it, if you like. My DD (4) said last night "we'll have to move that plant, or Santa won't be able to get down the chimney" - and I just "Mmm"-ed her about it! Rather than saying something completely made up like "Oh, don't worry, he has a magic key and can just get in the door" ... do you see what I mean?

Often, what you DON'T say is far more important than what you do imo ...

I know this is SUCH an old giffer thing to say but when my sister and me were little we had the BEST time at Christmas, they couldn't have been better. It was only recently when mum and I were having a chat when she talked about how skint she was - no tax credits or anything like that,very little maintainance from my dad, in fact we were living with my GP's - but we had NO idea. Looking back mum made loads of out pressies, which again was fine as there wasn't the pressure from telly ads etc.

Agree with you in lots of ways Scarlett but I think I do get a bit more into it than you - so, with the plant thing I'd probably have agreed and helped dd move the plant, then add some extra story humour like "with his big belly he'll need plenty of room !"
But it's a personal thing where you feel happy drawing the line between fact and fiction I guess