...to be considering withdrawing my child from collective worship next year

[Hopstheduck]

First time posting in aibu, please be gentle!

Starting thinking about this because the dts have a church service next week and we dont want them to attend. We are more than happy for them to learn about other religions, visit churches, etc. but feel uncomfortable with the idea of them actively participating.

Next sept they will be starting at a C of E junior school and I am wondering about whether to approach the school regarding religion in the assemblies. I know that on occasion the vicar leads these, and I dont want the dts becoming confused, or being expected to participate in christian acts of worship.

It seems to be uncommon these days to withdraw a child. I'd love to know if anyone else has approached it and how it worked out.

Even if I could afford to and I did move moved I would be disrupting all four of the children for the sake of the younger two. The primary and secondary schools here are excellent - mostly the reason we moved here. dd has had no end of trouble settling down, and ds1 has sn so no way I could upheave them.

These days it seems that every other school is religious and there would be no guarantee even if we did move that we could find a place. It would make far more sense for the dts to simply sit out of worship!

"there is only so far the Church of England school should be expected to tailor itself to your bizarre choices."

Yes. And exactly how far that is is laid down by legislation (right to withdraw children from collective worship). If you don't like that, campaign to change the legislation.

If she feels so strongly about it, then she should move
You live in the real world do you?

These days it seems that every other school is religious and there would be no guarantee even if we did move that we could find a place. It would make far more sense for the dts to simply sit out of worship!

Yes. But do speak to the school first - as people have said, schools do vary enormously.

runningwilde - that would be great if a) there were such a thing as a completely non-religious school in this country - but there isn't: a daily act of christian worship is legally compulsory at all state schools; and b) if the number of church schools exactly matched the number of practising Christians in each area, and there were non-religious schools available for everyone else. But that is clearly not the case.

For historical reasons, a large number of primary schools in the UK are officially church schools, but they are now largely funded by taxpayers' money (although the church often still owns the land/buildings). As a non-Christian taxpayer, I rather resent being told I should move house and try to find a non-existent non-religious school to send my children to, when I am paying for the one around the corner.

If you take your argument to its logical conclusion, each town and city should be divided into separate areas for different religious groups and atheists, with separate schools for each of them. Would you really want that? And you should only be allowed to live in certain rural areas if you are Christian because all the schools for miles around are church schools?

My DCs went to a CofE school for a while because it was the catchment school, and I think the proportion of practising Christians amongst the families there would have been well under 20 per cent. There were handfuls of families of other religions, but mostly just average agnostic/atheists who had no choice about where to send their children because the local school was CofE.

I agree with everyone else who says that all schools should be secular. Fat chance of that happening with Gove, unfortunately.

Applauds ExExpat

I'm truly staggered at the number of people on this thread who think people who don't want their children actively participating in Christian worship are 'weird and bizarre' and should 'suck it up'. Very tolerant.

HI OP
Just wanted to add my thoughts on this - and apologies if this has been repeated as I haven't read the whole thread.

I don't think you should pull your twins out of assembly because it might be very useful for them to learn about both types of religion (I assume you are teaching them the Hindu beliefs etc at home). It means that they will be able to understand their older siblings' (and your?) religion better too and make them into more well-rounded individuals with a broader view as opposed to, this is the one way and the only way. Attending a C of E school won't necessarily mean that they will be made to believe the school's teachings.

From personal experience I attended a C of E school but was brought up RC - and now, I'm neither - but that's neither here nor there! I suppose what I'm trying to say is that you will have given the opportunity to your twins to learn about more than one religion - and that can only be a good thing so they will then be more informed and able to make a choice later in life.

I've read two pages and am mad as hell (irony). Whenever there is a thread on a parent deciding between schools and is an atheist, they are told to suck it up and choose the best school (even though it conflicts with their beliefs). Then, they are told their child must participate in worship, suck it up. Pay taxes, suck it up that you are funding religious schools. Oh, and don't like it, change schools and suck it up that your child will have a worse education.

Church has no place in State education.

OP, YANBU. BTW, I was withdrawn from worship and me and my Jewish friend used to walk out of assembly. I hated it but better that than teach your children to shut up and take it because their rational and scientific beliefs don't go along with the Church and the politicians who like to make us all worship, even though the separation of Church and State is a fundamental of democracy. Imagine of you were forced to pray at work, FFS.

Dammit, should have read exexpat post.

As your dc get older you will realise that children hate being 'different' pretty much above all else. They will not thank you for withdrawing them. Better to let them stay and just explain that not everyone agrees with it. Give them credit for being able to decide for themselves. A few CofE assembies does not exactly constitute brainwashing does it?

Most churchgoers I know are atheists.

wow, after being mostly slated, thank you for the supportive posts, ladies!

I personally do believe education should be secular.

I do want them to learn about a variety of religious beliefs. Even the RE curriculum at this school is very biased. They will cover other religions as an overview for a few weeks but then spend a much larger proportion of time covering christian aspect, say different biblical stories in great detail. I want them to have a balanced education.

You do have the right to withdraw the children at the C of E school, as you do for all schools in the UK.

I just think it's strange to choose a school where this is likely to be an issue repeatedly, and cause a lot of problems if your husband is already on the alert for 'indoctrination' such as a church visit. There are lots of church visits in C of E schools, the vicar may well come in once a week, plus all the assemblies, carol concerts, even prayer time (silent prayer). We have none of that now in our non-denominational school.

I don't want my children to particpate in Catholic teachings about the church, so even though the best school in town is a Catholic primary, I don't send my children there, I drive them elsewhere to a non-denominational school. I could, of course send them to the Catholic school and ask that they be withdrawn from all religious occasions, but the school is steeped in them and I would find that rather disrespectful given I do have another choice.

'As your dc get older you will realise that children hate being 'different' pretty much above all else.'

I think we may discuss it with the dts and consider their opinions too. I do also intend to speak to the school too about just how far they would be expected to participate too before making any decisions.

Hops - your twins WILL get a balanced education - remember you will be teaching them at home too.

If you were to send them to a Hindu based school (I know that's not possible!) they would be learning the overviews of other religions and of course the larger part will be about Hindu - so, based on this, the C of E school would have more C of E teachings - otherwise it wouldn't be a C of E school. Do you see?

I know you would rather all schools be secular, but unfortunately for you, they're not; so you've just got to make the most of what you do have.

If there is a non faith school just a half hr away, isn´t that the better option?

Can´t your husband get them there?

There will be nothing worse for your children than making them feel different by withdrawing them from worship. I know because that's exactly what my Dad did when i was growing up!

My Muslim dad and CofE mum brought me & my sister up with no religion in my lives. My sister grew up and married in church (first time around) and had her children christened (2nd marriage).

I chose my children's school purely on the teaching enviroment and i accept that they have a Christian assembley most mornings. Despite the fact that i am an athiest, i join in the assemblies/hymn singing at school because even at 42 i don't want to feel different or embarass my children.

I trust the school not to brainwash my children and i know that they are taught about all religions. Luckily there's a good ethnic mix in the school and they are keen to expose them to a lot of religious festivals.

Your children will make up their own minds eventually.

"Church has no place in State education. "

Well quite. That would be the ideal.

Presumably you and DH teach your DC about their Hindu roots at home and they are also involved in the wider Hindu community, learning about their roots. Why not try out the collective worship at the school for the first term or so, then discuss with DC and make a decision whether or not to continue. I actually think that having Hindu children at a CofE school may be a real asset to the school as its an opportunity for other children to learn about a different religion/culture.

I agree that it would be better if there were no collective acts of worship, but even if this happened in non-denominational schools after a change in legislation, the OP would not benefit, as she still wants to send her children to a C of E school which would still be C of E after such a change, or just not exist as the church owns the building.

The nearest thing to a secular school is a non-denominational one- why not make at least some attempt to find one. I don't require the local Catholic school to stop being Catholic, or to go there but not participate in any of the religious bits, I just send my children elsewhere (and yes, it is a bit inconvenient but having had two children in two different schools for years, you just have to decide if it matters to you that much).

Also agree with ExPat. It's a shame that my child will have to have religion introduced to his life through schooling. It's not enough to say the non-religious should suck it up and just teach their kids that some people believe other stuff. Why should my non-religious child have god/jesus/religion mentioned to him at all?

LOL @ the people saying that hindu (or any non CofE religon) children do not belong in CofE schools and that they shouldn't be there. It's laughable. State schools should be secular, but they aren't, so people don't have any choice. There are some areas in the UK where children who are CofE are very much in the minority in the school.

Oh FFS for a lot of people it is almost impossible to find a school that isn't specifically christian, and even if you find one that is not officially christian, you tend to get a fair amount of christian bullshit no matter what. The best way to deal with it is to keep the DCs informed of what you think and also teach them that everybody has to put up with a certain amount of boring crap out of sheer politeness from time to time. And add that if they do get really fed up with it you will apply for them to be excused collective time-wasting worship.
I remember being put out that my mother wouldn't ask the school (at secondary level) if I could be excused assembly on the grounds that it was a waste of my time, so once I got to about 14 or so I and a few friends simply didn't go; we'd hide in the cloakrooms, finish our homework and just appear in class in time for the register.

SGB - I did a few years of very ostenatatiously not singing hymns during assembly and keeping my eyes open during prayers, but then in the 6th form took your approach and hid in the loos. I always had homework to catch up on too.

It's actually very offensive to state that if you aren't a practising member of the 'right' religion then you should just sod off to / commute to another postcode

Actually the more I think about this the more irritated I get.

It's just so WRONG that children should be bussed / driven by parents to a school miles away because they don't 'fit in' at their nearest state school. What about community? What about the environment?

So many of the CofE schools are at the heart of smaller, more rural communities. It just makes no sense to break that community up just because the vicar didn't give some of the local children enough 'church attendance points' to get into their community school. I know that isn't the case with the OP, but it's all part of the same problem.

I think the state school would probably be quite welcoming, plenty of C of E schools have pupils of other Christian denominations and faiths, in some areas of Bradford, the pupils are mainly Muslim in some C of E schools.

The OP has a problem with the school, not the other way around.