...to be considering withdrawing my child from collective worship next year

[Hopstheduck]

First time posting in aibu, please be gentle!

Starting thinking about this because the dts have a church service next week and we dont want them to attend. We are more than happy for them to learn about other religions, visit churches, etc. but feel uncomfortable with the idea of them actively participating.

Next sept they will be starting at a C of E junior school and I am wondering about whether to approach the school regarding religion in the assemblies. I know that on occasion the vicar leads these, and I dont want the dts becoming confused, or being expected to participate in christian acts of worship.

It seems to be uncommon these days to withdraw a child. I'd love to know if anyone else has approached it and how it worked out.

Your DH sounds fairly forceful in his beliefs too so surely you both understand why a C of E school would be?

Or should they dumb them down in order to pacify you?

So anyone who does not believe in Christianity should either accept that their children are going to be taught that Christianity is factually true or move house (or drive their children out of the area and send them to a different school from the rest of the community, or cough up for private education)?

Even though (and this IMO is the corker) this situation is specifically provided for in the statutory framework by giving parents the right to send their children to the local school with all their friends in the local community but just withdraw their children from collective worship?

That's the provision that has been made within the state education system just so that parents in the OP's situation don't have move, or bus their children out of the area, or drop out of the state system entirely. However, the collective wisdom of Mumsnet seems to be that the OP shouldn't take advantage of that but should make her life and the lives of her children more difficult because (AFAICS) wanting to not have your children actively taught a particular belief system is freakishly fussy and you deserve to suffer for it rather than take the easy way out that's been provided by the government with cases like yours in mind.

Sirzy "To be Christian doesn't mean you have to attend Church every week, it is more than possible to be a Christian without having to go to Church weekly!"

That's a very fair point. However,I think regular church attendance is a fair indication of a committed attitude to religion. Obviously, many more people would list themselves as 'Christian' - though I would argue that many consider themselves culturally Christian rather than necessarily religiously so.

The British Social Attitudes survey is the best source, but unfortunately there isn't free online access to the data so I can't link to it. The only easily available listing of the most recent (2009) figures is from the British Humanist Association (here), which is why I was reluctant to use it. However, it does seem as though even by this loose definition of Christian, only 43% would identify themselves as such now (and the proportion falls every year). So I would argue that it is very hard to say that we are still a Christian country.

it's not just their school though is it, it's our state school in our catchment area, so I don't think it is fair that we have have their religion pushed on us.

ds1 can't walk to school alone, he will be 10, but is disabled.

The school was fine for the older two because they are from my previous relationship. By the time the dts were born and we made the decision to bring them up Hindu they were 4 and 6. As much as we would like or prefer them to be Hindu, I don't feel I have the right to push mine or their dad's(dh) beliefs upon them and convert them from the religion they were born into. It is their decision to make.

To be fair Tmesis I don't actually agree with the English system and think it's a bit bonkers. I did say upthread that things were better here with non-doms as the norm and I believe that's a much better model for schooling generally. IMO religion has no place in schools.

But where there is a faith school I would expect all who attended that school to recognise that faith is an inherent part of that school's ethos and practice and I would expect the attendees to participate fully in the life of the school, as I would expect in every other aspect of their school life.

But your 43% paints a very different picture to the 6% you posted before. Whatever someones level of Christianity is almost half the population describe themselves as such.

I love the fact that this country is so multicultural now but I also wouldn't want to see the Christian routes being forced out as some people want for whatever reason.

I think it is important that schools teach about all religions but that the predominant religion is a Church school should of course be Christianity.

In the same way I've not pushed hinduism on the older two, I'd like to able to school the dts without having another christianity imposed upon them.

Even if you withdraw them from collective worship though there is still going to be an element of Christianity running through the curriculum which is pretty hard to avoid.

I can't get my head around bringing up children in the same family in different religious by the parents choice that must confuse the children and you surely?

OP-your two oldest & yourself are/were raised Christian-is it really not possible to send your youngest to a Cof E school the same as their siblings & also raise them Hindu?

What does your husband propose to do to help?

He went to a CofE school(?)-has it really affected his own beliefs?

Well, you will have Christianity imposed on them in a C of E school, it's part of their ethos and explicit aims. I think it's ridiculous to send them there, when there are, as you admit, non-faith schools in the area and then moan about their expressions of faith.

Ring the admissions officer and ask about the other schools. I think you withdrawing them is only defensible if the CofE school is really the only one in the district and you have no possible way of choosing another one (which is true in some more remote areas).

"In the same way I've not pushed hinduism on the older two,"-but that would surely be because neither you nor their father were Hindu?

Having been to CofE schools, I have to say that I didn´t feel that Christianity was imposed upon me.

It's not just remote areas where there is no choice.
I live in a town that has a population of 20,000 people and all the primary or junior schools are faith schools.

Totally accept what you say OP about your limited choice. It was the same for us a few years ago, and one of the reasons we moved.

I think withdrawing your children will draw more attention to the issue than letting them participate. It's a good way of getting your child to understand that sometimes it's easier just to fit in, especially when it's no skin off their nose! If they don't go to assemblies or have to leave part way through, they are bound to get questions from other kids, so you would need to prepare them for that anyway. Did you realise that non-CofE schools also sing some religious songs, are expected to have some kind of "act of worship", do Harvest Festival and celebrate the festivals of other religions such as Diwali and Eid?

Can't you just explain about religion to them? We are atheists but I always explained to my daughter (since before she started school) that mum and dad don't believe in god, although various other members of the family do. I always answered any questions from my point of view, and others' points of view.

For example, if you don't believe in god you can't believe that christ was the son of god - but you can still understand christianity and other religions as political movements with charismatic leaders who spread an important message that it is wrong to demonise the poor and disadvantaged in society. I have always treated it as something to learn about (rather like crossing the road, or what the Ancient Egyptians believed) and pointed out she would decide herself what she thought when she's older - rather than telling her what she should think. That way, there's less pressure.

She's now 10, understands religion, has learnt about them all (or most of them) and respects the fact that some of her friends believe in god, and actively worship at church. They accept that she doesn't believe in god, or go to church. It's just never been a big issue. She knows the Easter and Christmas stories, which are the most important in the Christian religion. But like us, she lives happily without religion in her life.

Recently a family member was married in a catholic church. She was a bridesmaid, and was blessed as a non-believer while all the catholics were taking communion. These things happen, and there's simply no way you can make a fuss in that situations without embarrassing your child. When I mentioned to her that I was proud of how nicely she dealt with it, all she said was "The priest had really sweaty hands"!

I think it's important to teach tolerance and understanding of these things. There's no way you can avoid religion in our society - better than they learn about it from you. There might be some appropriate books you can get through the Secular Society or something like that - but I never felt I needed them.

Sorry this turned into an essay!

I do completely agree with you Sirzy that a CofE school should be able to be predominantly Christian. The problem comes when there is no functional alternative for the 53% of the population who are not Christian.

Its also very hard to know about the unspecified proportion who asked their religion, say 'Christian', as my parents would do despite both being atheists. To them (and I imagine many of their generation) they are Christian the way that other people they know are Jewish, it doesn't mean that they - or their Jewish friends - actually believe in God. (And FWIW they actively went out of their way to avoid sending me to a church Secondary school, as there was an option at that point).

Hopstheduck I think you are right as you have made a decision not to indoctrinate your children into your chosen faith you are annoyed that a state school is doing that with its chosen faith. I would see it as a way to discuss the similarities and differences between the two faiths your children come into closest contact with.

My kids LOVE Tinga Tinga Tales on CBEEBIES and though the stories are bollocks quiet obviously, it doesn't stop me celebrating in the enjoyment of the story. Its a way of explaining WHY. Just as religion is. I DO at times get annoyed with the 'taught as fact' approach, but again I see it as opening up a discussion.

I actually respect those who have a strong faith who manage to bring their children up to think for themselves. Being agnostic makes it easy for me to 'sit on the fence' if you like, to say "yes darling, but others believe this, others believe that, and I don't believe 100% in one or the other" - it must be tough to NOT bring your child up in your own faith. But I always feel that living a faith is a more productive way to encourage new followers than preaching it or disrespecting others.

Lets be real though, ALL faiths have within them certain people who will preach, disrespect, pour scorn on another, but if you bring your child up to be inquisitive and confident, open and unafraid to talk, the extremists can do little harm.

I would say that if your children grow up to absolutely respect YOUR faith (and others), whether they follow it or not, then its a job well done.

Should have read "better that they learn about it from you" at the end.

Olgaga - fantastic post, its a shame everyone can't be as accepting of other peoples beliefs and bring up their children to think in the same way.

I am Christian but will be making sure when DS is old enough to understand he is aware of the beliefs of others and that just because I think something is "right" (in religious terms) doesn't mean other people are wrong if they don't agree.

just to add a different point of view - my parents are athiest and we were basically brought up as athiest; that there is no proof of any god/s and whilst some people believe in god/s my parents raised us to value science/evidence over faith in the unprovable. We went to a standard state school, not CofE, but as per the law it had daily worship etc and it was extremely forceful in telling children that the christian faith was the only true faith, that god was real, that bible stories were true etc. It caused confusion when we were small as our teachers, who we are supposed to trust/respect said one thing and our parents another. Eventually, following discussions with me, my parents requested that I was removed from all religious teaching/worship within the school. I spent assemblies in my classroom reading.

This remained the case through primary and middle school. We then tried again at secondary until the (Evangelical Christian) RE teacher (who believed that god has spoken to him personally on multiple occasions) did his "class" on athiesm:
"Some people don't believe in god, they are wrong. Spend the rest of the class reading quietly".

At which point I went back to my exclusion. I then spent assembly/RE class in the library reading. Personally I think I learnt a lot more from those hours in the library than I would have done being preached at by christians, but that's just my opinion.

The point I really want to make is this, as someone who has experienced the "isolation" from my peers of opting out of RE I can honestly say I had no issue with it whatsoever; at primary, middle or secondary school. Yes it marked me out as different and yes people asked questions, but from an early age I was able to explain for myself why I didn't attend assembly or RE class and I never found that "difference" to be negative - but my parents did raise me to believe that i should be myself and not concern myself with trying to be "one of the crowd" so I never felt that difference had to be bad anyway. I think it is 100% wrong to force children to worship and I will never, ever allow my child to be forced to sit in an assembly, or church service and pray to a god they don't believe in.

As to the idea that christmas is purely christian - I wholly disagree, it has pagan roots (as mentioned above I think) and in this day and age for the vast majority of people in this country, it is about family and gift giving, not faith. The idea that we shouldn't celebrate it because we aren't christian is frankly a bit daft and seems rather out of touch with what most people consider christmas to mean.

I agree with the OP that schools should be secular; teach about faith, as it is relevant to our history, to politics and to culture, but don't preach. Belief is for individuals to decide for themselves and should be a private matter.

Tmesis - spot on.

It is simply wrong that some of us have no realistic choice of state school except a faith school. As it is, he OP will have to make the best she can of it. I think she should definitely talk to the school ahead of time, find out exactly what their stance is, how they accommodate children of other faiths or none. It may be that they can deal with her DTs appropriately short of her withdrawing them from assembly; if they seem unable to do so then she'll have to do that, as is her right.

Good luck!

sirzy, we haven't had issues with clashing so far. It wasn't really a decision we sat down and made really, to bring them up separate religions.

The dts were born, they were hindu. I intended to teach all the kids about both sides of their heritage, but there was always going to be a bias especially with the dts, because of dh, his family and my beliefs changing. The older two, it was probably a bit more balanced, learning about both sides of our family.

The older two starting getting more interested in Christianity, around age 7-8 dd wanted to start Girls brigade. We supported her choice, that lead to going to Church. Then ds1 followed her. I think dd's beliefs in particular are quite strong.

So we ended up with two religions! We just have to teach the kids to respect each other's beliefs. But we don't want to go as far as pushing them to participate in each others.

it no doubt will get increasingly complicated later on, and we will end up having more discussions, especially when it comes to questions about death. ATM they are happy enough to accept different beliefs.

As is the same with all these threads, people want good schools for their DC, but don't realise that the schools come as a whole package. The reason they are good and mostly the DC behave well, is because the school is Christian, for example. The OP does have a choice. If she feels so strongly about the religious aspect, then she should move. My DC went to a Catholic primary school. It meant that I had to put myself out. It wasn't down the road, I did have to sort out all sorts of different childcare, getting home from school, etc. I did it, because that was the education that we wanted.

I think it would be unfortunate for the OP's DC not to participate in every aspect of school life. They will be missing out on a lot. It's not all about religion - it's about the whole school sitting together for a common purpose, having to be quiet when there's lots of distractions, all working together to put on a nativity play, for example.

If she feels so strongly about it, then she should move, or send her DC to the nearest non-denominational school. So, yes, OP, YABU.

People like you are so bloody annoyin op - if you don't want your child at a C of E school don't send them - if this is so important to you then suck up the extra half hour traffic to the other non-faith school and leave C of E schools to people who want them.

Yabsososounreasonalble and so annoying. Either accept the C of E school for what it is or take them to another non faith school

You are being ridiculous. If you made a decision to raise your kids as Hindu, they have no place in a Christian school. You admit you send your older dc there for convenience sake, so either take the trouble to get them to a more suitable school, or accept that there is only so far the Church of England school should be expected to tailor itself to your bizarre choices.

tinseltoedrope, thank you - it's really helpful to hear about it from someone who has been in that situation as a child!

olgaga, thank you, I do try to teach them about different beliefs, they've got two examples at home even
I really do have no problems with them learning about other religions. DT1 especially is very interested in different cultures. They are both fascinated by different countries.

Nice to see runningwilde displaying the empathy and tolerance that Christians are so rightly famed for.

By the way, Hopstheduck, it bothers me that you say the children were born Hindu, or born into the Hindu religion. They weren't born anything. Children are not born with any religious beliefs at all. They learn them from adults. If their Hindu parents were unable or unwilling to bring them up themselves, you have no obligation to raise them as Hindus.