to think that for some obese people, its not their fault, and surgery is a really good option?

[NotMyBigFatFault]

I weigh 17 and a half stone. I am 5 foot 3. Size 22.

I am hungry most the time. I wake up with a hunger, I have breakfast, cereal, or toast, or something else if I am on a proper "diet" (done them all - Atkins, Lighterlife, Slimming World, Weight Watchers, Cambridge, calorie counting, etc). By 9am I am hungry again. By 11am I am ready for lunch. By 1pm I am ready for more. I could go on but my obesity is not driven, in my opinion by greed (which would be eating way beyond which one is hungry) but by hunger. Genuine hunger for perfectly normal, even healthy food.

I know this is not the case with all obese people. But for quite a few it is.

I remember begging my Nanny to commence lunch proceedings at 11am one day. I was absolutely ravenous. I just wanted that sandwich so much. I could; have eaten 10 of them. I was 4 years old and had no idea what comfort eating was - I knew what tummy rumbles were, though.

My dad has never felt properly full. He stops eating, because he knows he'll get really really big if he doesn't, but he always has a knawing desire to eat. He exercises plenty of self control, which is why he is about 18 stone, not 27 stone, or 32 stone, or 36 stone and dead.

My mother has been on the dieting merry-go-round all her life (well, since she was 9). She has always been hungry. She doesn't actually eat particularly large portions, she's a bit of a picker, because she feels nauseous if she gets properly hungry due to medication she is on, but I can put way more away than her, though I try not to, as I am always on a diet. Being on a diet most the time and only breaking it when I can't stand it anymore is what keeps me at 17 and a half stone. I'd weigh more if I didn't exercise this level of self control. Its driven by fear for my health and vanity.

I recently sought weight loss surgery, looked at options, decided on either a Gastric Bypass or Sleeve Gastronectomy (gastric sleeve), and saw an eminent consultant, who approved me for surgery. The surgery will be funded privately by myself. We decided on the sleeve. The procedure cuts away the fundus part of the stomach, reducing your stomach size to 25% of what it was, but most importantly, removes the part of the stomach which is responsible for secreting Ghrelin , reducing that knawing, all consuming and unrelenting hunger that makes some obese people, well, obese. Its keyhole surgery under general anaesthetic.

I go on bike rides, walks, I do trampolining, dancing, the gym, enjoy the great outdoors, and running about with my kids. I am reasonably fit considering my size.

AIBU to think that obesity is not all about "greed", lack of self-denial (we are talking a lifetime, by the way, not a few weeks), "junk food", or "lack of exercise"? Is there anyone out there who thinks, actually, this is not my fault ?

Sorry that I misread the 500 cals bit... But have you seen an endocrinologist? There may be a reason why you are struggling to lose weight.

I'm not struggling to lose weight so much as struggling ot maintain it. Yes, I am becoming desensitised to the diet industry and "burned out" in terms of following a diet plan - you get to the point where you wonder if there is any point and deep down you know that maintaining it will be very difficult. And yes, I do take longer than most. The amount of times I've been to Weight Watchers, Slimming world, etc etc and had people confessing how they had a curry so "only lost 2 pounds" this week - gah.

I think a lot of this is to do with the fact that I have been dieting since I was 12.

My lean mass has taken a bit of a beating and my body is worried I will starve it again, if there is a scientific name for that.

Whislt I have not seen an endocrinologist, I have had my thyroid function done, bloods for other things, liver function, the whole shebang really. I know my lean mass is a bit down and I'm working with my personal trainer to build this up. This will boost my basal metabolic rate. This has more of an impact on maintaining that losing, as such though is useful whatever happens. I have had some hormone stuff analysed as well.

I do lose weight with severe calorie restriction. I've never "bought" the whole if you don't eat enough you will stop losing thing - with me, I most definitely lose more the less I eat. Plans like WW and SW which have you eat more calories but enough to supposedly lose but be able to maintain etc etc don't actually work for me. Cambridge/Lighterlife and more extreme diets do - they are the only diets that have ever provided me with significant weight loss - but the weight maintenance aspect is difficult, because realistically you can't go on like that forever.

I did lose weight, but a bit slower than others, but to be fair the 1.4 pounds a week average was averaged out over 7 months with a month or two of the first phase of management included - it was my average. I did very, very well on it really and was consistent, compliant, full of will power, NOT LAZY, etc etc (this is more in response to others) but realistically, I am not going to do that to myself again unless I know I have a bees dick chance of maintaining it.

Can I just thank each and every poster for their contribution, I think its really useful to discuss, whether its the "you are lazy try harder" or the "I feel for you" type posts - just keep them coming, I value everyone's contribution

My friend has been obese her whole life. Even on her first birthday she tried to eat the whole cake! Her mum had to remove the cake from the table :) I believe there are different body types, and she will never be naturally thin or even slim. She feels hungry all the time. She was raised on a normal diet, her siblings are average size.
OP-you know your body better than anyone else. If you have decided that Gastric Sleeve is the right decision, then go for it. Don't seek approval from others, most people simply cannot relate to what you mean by feeling hungry all the time. For the average person hunger pangs come and go, and they subside after a week's diet.

Aaaah Flicktheswitch thank-you so much! Why did I never think of this. Eat less, yes, yes it all makes sense why have I never tried to do this before. Silly me.

My elderly father is like this and l have been driven - as him and mums main carer - to almost despise him at times. Yes thats right my own dad - and we were so close. My DH who is a lovely kind person - with a bad word for no-one - has even taken to calling him the 'eating machine' or 'that greedy bugger' or 'Mr Selfish' (because l have to fight off endless demands from him to replace what he has scoffed or mum would go hungry).

He has not got dementia, diabetes - had him tested for both - l even asked the GP if she thought he might have worms ! - but no again - no medical reason whatsoever for his greed hunger.

I have taken to drip feeding their shopping i.e. taking their main evening meal round from our fridge or ready cooked from our oven every evening. If l didnt - a weeks worth of meals would be snacked away by him every hour or so. He has reduced me to tears of despair on several occasions upon looking in the fridge and seeing whats left. Mum isnt mobile so its not her - she only eats what l and the carer give her ( she cant help herself obv.) which is just at 'normal' mealtimes and is normal amounts.

Today l got yet another phone call from mums carers office just to let me know when they'd been there at midday today they had noticed there was no food in except a bit of cereal. They know what dads like - lve told them - but they were just informing me to cover themselves/concern for mum etc.

Last night l took the following - a large cooked meal for each of them - home made meat and potato pie and gravy , three ready meals - shepherds pie, beef stew and corned beef hash , a packet of cheese slices (8) , a packet of ham (8slices) a large loaf , four slices of bacon and two tomatoes , six bread rolls and a slab of Xmas cake - you know the supermarket size in clingfilm wrap.

So 12 noon today - phonecall -he's troughed the lot .

He is actually on his third 200g spreadable butter tub this week - l kid you not - he just trowels it on bread, on mashed potato -anything really. As the person in charge of his finances and his shopping it is soul destroying and relentless - l could, l have often said have a supermarket trailer pulled up to the kitchen and after unoading it he would still say - 'have you not got me any er.....(whatever)' - just completely insatiable with food. The minute l walk in the door (the hairs on back of my neck stand up now - cos l'm waiting for it ) - he will hit me with a demand for some food item he has run out of or is getting low on etc.

Now people might say - well he's not really overweight (he's not, always been naturally slim) and he's not doing any harm and its up to him really (he is doing harm -to me ! - l'm worn out - and depriving mum - she's lucky to see any treats etc and wouldnt even get meals if it was down to him) so no IMO its not a victimless 'crime' . It does usually impact on other people around you and greed is a very very unattractive trait to have - its certainly managed to all but destroy my relationship with my dad.

I am nothing like that, and to boot, I am not "naturally slim".

He couldn't be more different than me. I could never put anything like that amount of food away!

What a shame you despise him for that though. He does sound like he's been driven by hunger, and he's not even overweight!

I'd try and enjoy him whilst he's about, if you can, despite his shortcomings

OP I had the sleeve gastrectomy back in 2009 and I lost all my excess weight in just over a year, my BMI is now under 22 and I am very happy with it. I used to feel hungry all the time but now I think I experience hunger like 'normal' people. I too self paid and it was the best thing I could have done, tbh I didn't think I would last much longer the state I was in at over 18 stone. I could hardly walk without bed back pain and breathlessness. Now I am at just over 9 stone and feel terrific and my asthma has gone. I hope it works as well for you as it did for me.

OldMumsy - I think you need a new Username!!! Thank you for your contribution. I have read of so many people like you who never would have dreamed of being 9 stone (I for one have not been 9 stone since I was about...9!) - who are still going strong. People who weighed more than me to start with.

Its great to hear from you, and great to hear it worked for you so well as a "hungry all the time" and "now normal" person.

Oh and I didn't have excess skin like other people have said after the rapid weight loss despite being 52 at the time of the Op. And I also experienced significant loss of hunger which is great. Most of the people posting on here are clueless and ignorantly judgemental, ignore them and go with what your surgeon recommends. Alos look at this site for far more info www.verticalsleevetalk.com/ and good luck.

Sorry just read your reply, we cross posted. I am just wading through the pages of mostly rubbish and I am getting very irritated. Stick to your guns. I promised myself that despite achieving thinness I would never be a bitch to other fat people, which is what you are getting from some of the other contributers.

Don't do the gastric band, it's dangerous and needs refills (the band is held onto the stomach by scar tissue how nice is that and if it slips it can wreak havoc), the vertical gastric sleeve is better and also there is now the gastric plication operation which is said to be very goog. I am glad I chose the VSG though, it just works for me.

Thanks! My surgeon said the gastric band would not be right for me, because the hunger would still be there due to the fact the fundus and ghrelin production would be unchanged. Definitely a candidate for a sleeve.

Thanks for your contribution!

Hi - yes l know you're not naturally slim so different to my dad and obviously this thread is about obese people - the similiarity l was referring to was the constant ability to eat/hunger/greed whichever pov a person takes on it - which l guess is also the subject of this thread. I obviously am being badly affected by this trait whatever you want to call it and therefore find it hard to buy into any 'excuse' for it with the exception of a medical condition which as l understand it only genuinely causes a very small percentage of obesity or overeating (even without the obesity as in my dads case). So l am sorry but l guess l am in the YABU camp. You do obviously try to control your urge to eat which my father doesnt and never has apparently its just l never saw it living away from home most of my adult life.

Also l dont despise my father - l actually said almost driven to despise him I think - but looking after him (and mum) on a daily basis he does drive me to distraction. Its this trait of greed of my dad that l dislike intensly more than my dad himself. You will note l try and find ways round it so l can carry on looking after my parents - 'drip feeding' the food from our fridge to theirs etc. This is all to reduce/avoid any angst between us. I think anyone been in my shoes these last few years wouldnt be in the mood for hearing any 'excuses' for his completely 'food driven trait' even to the detriment of people around him in my dads case.

Fair enough Sudaname. I wonder if he's very bored and dissatisfied with his life?

Has he always been this way? (no need to answer, just ponder)

With my unusual set of circumstances, I'm not about to judge you for yours! Well done to you for caring for your elderly parents the way you do. Its hard, no doubt.

Take care x

NotMyBigFatFault, the grehlin from the fundus definitely caused a lot of my hunger. Now I am thin I occasionally feel really hungry basically because my blood sugar has got too low, I eat and then feel better. I do not overeat and I don't want to, I couldn't if I wanted. I can eat maybe 6oz steak now and thats it for dense protein. I don't eat sweets, chocolate, much bread, cake etc becuase I simply don't like it any more. I eat plenty of eggs, meat, some cheese, non starchy vegetables and fruit. I am very happy with this food. I take various supplements just to be on the safe side. You may want to research sublingual Vit B-12, the fundus also produces something called intrinsic factor which is needed to absorb vit B12, so the way to get this short of injections it to let a tablet dissolve under your tongue every day, it gets taken through the membranes in the mouth apparently. I also take calcium and vit D as I am post menopausal. Other have mentioned hair loss, this happens due to body shock I think, it grows back, well it did for me anyway! I was struck by jacqueleinehydes description of her asthma getting out of control and stopping her from exercising and the effects of the steroids, I think this was part of my problem too, plus on and off depression over the years. Eventually you just give up as it's just too difficult. VGS surgery breaks the cycle and gives you a tool to control your eating. I could get fat again if I drank lard or similar but I choose not to and I don't want to. Transfer addiction is another matter you might need to look at, I struggle sometimes with knowing when to stop with booze and being smaller it doesn't take so much to push me other the edge. On that subject and the liver shrinking diet try taking milk thistle every day, it really helps the liver, I never get hangovers now as i have taken one daily for the past 3 years!!!! I'm off to bed now so byeeeee!

Right, I've just plouged through I-don't-know-how-many-pages and in no particular order here are my further thoughts for the OP or anybody else in her position:

• I would ask for a formal referral to see an endocrinologist. Not so much to have the weight issue investigated, but the hunger problem. You said you had your thyroid and 'hormones' checked, I assume that mean sex/female hormone, yes? How about insulin (fasting and after sugar challenge - not an easy test from a technical point of view, usually done in hospital), cortisol (again usually hospital test as needs to be done in early morning before you got out of bed), prolactin and other tests for hypopituitarism. Please bear in mind that a possible disorder of the pituitary gland is very rare and not terribly likely to be cause for you ongoing struggle with your weight.

• Re the whole hunger/appetite thing: I had a greatuncle who was a PoW in a Russion detention camp during/after WWII who used to greatly annoy me as a child as he always said to me and my cousins when we came in from playing "hungry": "You lot don't know the meaning of the word." Now, I see his point. I think we as a society are very rarely really hungry. I think we often go for days and weeks either full, overfull or developing an appetite. Not hungry. This wil inevitably affect how often/how much we eat and when we feel sated.

This in turn affect how much we think about eating/where the next bite is coming from. I truly believe that naturally think people are blessed with only eating when their are hungry and not for any other reason (as a rule). I think these people are in the minority and that a lot of lifelong-slim people are actually really quite disciplined.

• Re bariatric surgery. There are pros and cons to all different types of surgery. Be careful that you have an understanding what these are ie reversible methods vs. not reversible; methods more or less likely to have the potential for malabsorbtion syndrome in the long run; operative risk etc etc. I am sure there are more - I am not an expert.

Make sure your surgeon is not simply 'selling' you whatever method he is offering. Make sure your surgeon also has an NHS post somewhere. Make sure he does the procedure he is offering you at least 2x/week on average - this is the minimum of practice that ensure a low complication rate. Please, please make sure you have a follow-up plan in place - not just for routine check-ups, but also for worst case scenario if it goes wrong (I have recent horrific experience of things going wrong after privately done gastric bypass surgery). Having said all that, I have seen surgery make a huge difference to motivated and well informed people who go into this life-changing procedure with their eyes wide open. Somebody said to me that went for surgery after they had made their peace with the fact that they 'will never eat a normal meal again'.

-Like I said before, there are HUGE amounts of unknowns about appetite/weight regulation. Ghrelin is ONE off them, but v unlikely to be the whole story. Until v recently medicine viewed excess fat as simple ballast (not good for your joints and hard work for your heart, but otherwise inert). Now we know it is hormonally active; it actively DOES stuff and doesn't just sit around making you heavier and bigger.

It has been v interesting and touching to read some of your experiences, so thank you for that.

I really hope you find a way forward, NotMyBigFatFault, and anybody else in a similar position.

Oh, and excess skin: whether or not you develop a problem with that depends mainly on skintype (deffo blame your genes!) and how fast weight was lost.
Plastic Surgery can to a total body skin lift (in several stages, mind) which is available on the NHS - well, it is here...

Yes maybe have often thought that and have tried lots of different things with him - take him out once a week to different places (with the DGCs in the hols - his GDGCs obv). But all he wants to do is go somewhere to eat or where food is involved - he has a proper sulk if l suggest anything else - aquarium , swimming , museum , walk , park etc etc but mention a meal or picnic or Macdonalds and he's keen as mustard.

Maybe he cant help it and maybe you are right and some obese people cant help it but l cant help how his behaviour has worn me down gradually and made me feel like l do - worn out and just a teeny tiny tad resentful you may have noticed .

I wish you all the best I really do and you take care too.

Breakfast is an odd meal, I never ate breakfast until I had children as I was out of the house so early, I never felt hungry.

I started eating breakfast after having children and found it made me hungry, by mid-morning I was having hunger pangs. For breakfast now I usually have a chocolate chip brioche, fruit salad, petit filous natural yoghurt and coffee in total its just under 200 calories and it fills me up all day.

I think you are right, years of dieting have altered your metabolism. 500 calories for 6 months is not healthy as I'm sure you know.

My mil lost about 4 stone by eating hardly anything. She has kept the weight off but has been living on 500 calories for around 10 years now. She doesn't understand how my calorie intake is double hers and yet I lose weight. It is because I lose weight slowly and I don't give anything up. I'm losing weight at the moment but I'm still eating chips, wine, chocolate etc I'm just eating sensible sized portions.

I think you need expert advice to see how you can overcome the damage you have to your metabolism. I don't think surgery is the option, you may find that you don't lose anything.

I'm about half way into losing the 5 stone needed to get me back to normal range. I've always been plump but life/time/pregnancies saw that creep up to fat & I too used to be convinced I was always hungry and no diet ever worked. I can see now the diets only didn't work because I either (secretly) cheated or gave up and all I needed to do was acknowledge I might feel hungry & accept that if I'm busy (genuinely busy not just pissing about) I can carry on for another 30/40/60 + minutes without eating. Of course there are people with genuine medical conditions that prevent weight loss and/or cause weight gain, but in my experience people overeat because they are bored, greedy, or fulfilling an emotional void that needs addressing elsewhere.

All that said, if a gastric band/thread helps you achieve your goals and you accept the risks involved then why not?
LCN

I had tried a number of diets in the past, lost weight and gradually put it back on. What worked for me was hypnotism. I think it depends why you overeat, but I found hypnotism was successful in de emotionalising food for me. This meant I was no longer eating food to try and make myself feel better.

I also found interestingly that it made my hunger pangs less strong. Before I would get such strong hunger pangs that were painful. Now I feel hungry, but it can be easy to ignore. I think in my case the emotion attached to food was making my hunger pangs feel much stronger.

But I know hypnotism doesn't work with everyone. Might be worth a go though?

I think people who think obesity is simply caused by overeating are naive. Of course biologically it is. But there are usually reasons for it beyond greed.Just as giving up smoking is not really about overcoming nicotine addiction or reducing alcohol is not just about stopping drinking.

Anyone that's quit smoking can tell you that the physical addiction part is the easy bit - you're over that in a couple of weeks. The psychological addiction is the killer, I don't know if you ever get over that. 5 years after quitting I can still get the most intense cravings that come out of nowhere and I know if I gave into one I'd be up to a pack a day within a week. Luckily they pass fairly quickly.

However, compared to dieting, quitting smoking was a walk in the park! Much easier to give up something cold turkey than to moderate IME.

OP, you have my sympathies. I am a chronic dieter and I can relate to yours and so many of the other stories here. I know very well the desire just to be normal.

I wish you luck! Please update after your surgery, I would be interested in hearing how it works out for you.

I also found it much easier to give up smoking than diet. I think it is because you can totally stop smoking, you can't totally stop eating.

LOL, I'm the opposite. I don't think I'll ever truly be a non-smoker, even if I'm not smoking at the time.

I quit for 3.5 years after a bad asthma attack. 2 months into this weight loss thingy, suddenly got the cravings again, really badly. Out in the pub one night pissed I thought, "one won't hurt."

And now I am properly smoking again. And not a mission of giving up. (Similarly to the weight loss, there is no point in trying if you don't actually want to give up.)

I'm not sure about the theory of addictive personality, but if it's true, I've got one.