Scout Association - Promise - Athiests

[Technodad]

Hi all,

A bit of background: We are a family of atheists and we are bringing up our children to world aware and tolerant individuals who are inclusive of all members of society. This includes educating them about the beauty of human diversity and an understanding of different beliefs within our culture. If during this process one of my children finds faith, then we are open and flexible to this, as long as this is a choice of the child and not as a result of faith being pushed upon them by others.

The problem: As one of the kids is now 6 years old, we thought we would look into signing him up for Beaver Scouts. I went when I was a kid and it was fun. A slot has now come up in the local group, but when they phoned to ask if we wanted to join, we were asked if he would be willing to make the scout oath, which requires him to say the words "To do my duty to God and to the Queen". Ignoring the Queen for this discussion, since it is an indisputable proven fact that she is our Head of State, I have a bit of an issue with the ?God? bit. My problem is not because I have a issue with religion, but because it leave us atheists in a bit of a quandary ? we don?t like to be hypocrites.

I did some research online, and it seems that if you give evidence at court, or join the military, you can drop the ?god bit? from your oath if you are a non-believer. This means that even us heathens can be honest when we make these pledges, to do otherwise would be immoral. However, apparently the Scout Association refuses to follow suit and insists on every member being ?of faith? (it doesn?t matter what faith, as long as it has a god it seems).

So I have two options:

1. Give him the choice of joining and telling a lie (he is a very clever 6 year old and this is how he will see it).
2. Not let him go to save putting him in a difficult position.

The irony is that the Beaver group is happy for him to join, as long as he says the words, but they equally want him to follow the Scouting Laws which include: ?A Scout is to be trusted?, ?A Scout has courage in all difficulties?, ?A Scout has self-respect and respect for others?. The irony is, he will break these 3 of the 7 Laws in the process of joining just by saying these words!

I am fed up with society?s approach to atheism and its desires to discriminate against those who don?t believe. My son goes to a local C of E school and is made to pray in assembly ? i.e. he must put his hands together when everyone else does (we live in a rural community and there are not many schools to choose from ? ultimately your kids are sent to the school in catchment that has spaces). I completely encourage him to be exposed to religion, so I don?t want him to be taken out of assembly during group worship, but why can he not just sit there quietly and respectfully. We have asked him if he wants to be excused from religious assembly so that he doesn?t have to pray and he says that he doesn?t want to look different from the other children, which I can completely understand. Why is it that society is hell bent on highlighting the differences between one another, rather than celebrating the similarities?

So?.. Am I Being Unreasonable?

Technodad.

[/Rant]

I think I would try to find another activity if it is going to cause problems. It will keep cropping up as they tend to attend church stuff too.

Very few 6-7 year olds (Beavers) or indeed older children have much concept of what "God" means. So actually most of them are just parroting the words.

I always understood the scout promise to mean seeking to develop one's own spirituality and morality e.g exploring the notion of a higher being, understanding of world religions and seeking to understand how they apply to yourself. I prefer the wording of the Guide Assocation promise "To love my God" which I think translates this better.

I believe that you can ask to "personalise" the promise so you could change the "God" bit so it worked better for you - or you could just explain to your DS what the promise actually "means" in practical terms.

I think you had better go with option 2.

The Scouts is and always has been a faith based organisation.

I really think you'd be better off looking for secular activities for your DCs.

YANBU.

I resigned as Brownie leader because I'm an atheist (and a republican) and somehow hadn't realised that they are, at heart, a theist, royalist organisation.

I think it depends largely on the individual group and the area in which they are based. My group (and area) would have been happy for me to change 'Love my God' to 'Love Other People' in my promise, however I would then have had to explain atheism to the girls. That would have been fine, however the meetings always ended with a hymn and I didn't feel that I could keep up the pretence.

I didn't want to be dishonest (atheists have morals too, as you well know!) so I told them upfront about my non-belief.

I'd suggest having a chat with your local group. Although the larger organisation may be strict about it, you may find more flexibility in your local area.

I am a Cub Scout Leader and militant athiest.

There are variations on the Scout Promise and Law to suit other religions that exclude the word 'God' available from HQ if your pack requests them.

Disclaimer: I am a Christian.

I was brought up in a household like the one you describe. My parents were loving, very attentive and wanted what what best for us. I didn't become a Christian until my 20s and the rest, as they say, is history.

I actually get your point clearly when you compare how the Scouts won't drop the bit about God, yet in court it can be omitted. However, courts are not run by churches, and from what I know about Scouts they are usually based in church halls.

Do you think it is worth your DS missing out on group activities, mixing with other kids and having fun in Scouts in the way you say you did as a child, just because of the oath which will take all of about 5 minutes to do? You seem to hold strong beliefs which you don't want to be compromised, which is fine, yet you should respect that Scouts have strong beliefs that they don't want to compromise by letting the word God be left out.

Your last paragraph made me a bit. You say you are happy for your kids to choose their own faith (if any) as they grow, but you don't want any faith pushed on them. 100s of things are pushed onto our kids every day - media, conversations with other adults, other children etc. You can't pick and choose all the things your children see and where they go all the time, esp as they get a bit bigger and go out without you.

"Why is it that society is hell bent on highlighting the differences between one another, rather than celebrating the similarities?"
This is what you are doing too. Wanting to take your child out of a school assembly in a CofE school because you don't want him to pray. Has he said that he is uncomfortable with being part of group prayer or other religious practices? It isn't about you, rather it is about him.

I think YABU, but I do think you're trying your best for your son.

Christians are usually flamed quite a lot on MN, so I'm donning my hardhat and sitting down with a

YANBU to let him join, as an athiest he has no duty to his god, so will have no problem fulfilling his obligations inherent in the oath. He is not promising to fulfil what other people think their duty to their gods are, just his.

Oh and also im calling your bluff, as he is joining Beavers he wouldnt even need to say that version of the promise.

The queen isnt even mentioned in the Beaver promise.

Well scouts is optional, unlike school, so if you feel that strongly then you're doing the right thing by taking option 2.

gguk do have better wording in comparison.

Would your 6yo be able to articulate that he doesn't believe in God so wouldn't want to make the promise but would like to attend Beavers until he feels that he would be able to? I've heard of that happening with an older child, probably scouts but possibly cubs, and the leader respecting it. It was part of an interesting leadership development group/conference/weekend jolly and one of the topics was promises.

If you don't believe in God then you don't have a duty to this "non-existent" diety, right?
So if you look at the pledge, "To do my duty to God and to the Queen" what he would be saying is that he will do his duty to nothing and the Queen. Why object to that?

It's not like it says what this duty is... I could completely understand objecting if it said "To worship God and the Queen" but it doesn't say that, does it?

The thing is, the Scouts is a private organisation, and can set whatever rules/creeds/promises it likes. It's not a human right to attend scouts, therefore, although I totally agree with your 'society gives too much focus on religion' points, I don't think they apply in this case. The scouts shouldn't HAVE to alter their rules to accomadate your children's lack of belief.

On a larger scale, if I had atheist kids and wanted them to go to sunday school because it was fun, all their firends were doing it, and they got to make cool crafts, but didn't want them to have to do any believing in god, would that sound reasonable? Or would the sunday school be perfectly within their rights to say 'believing in god and talking about it is a part of what we do, therefore if you don't want to do that, don't come'?

I'm an atheist, and I wouldn't join a group that required me to express, truthfully or otherwise, a belief in a god/gods.

Its a shame if you feel your kids will miss out of all the other stuff that scouts do, - it there another outdoorsy group they could joi that isnt so god-y?

I am a cub scout leader and a very sceptical agnostic. I am not an atheist because I reject the extreme stance of the atheist position. I am a scientist won't reject the possibility of God without proof. I've encouraged my children to be "possibilians". In fact, "Possibilian" is what I wrote on my cub scout leader application form.

I wrestled with this for months before I made my peace and joined DS and I up.

In terms of the scout promise, they only make it once and I let it slide off us. Every week they say "Cub scouts always do their best" and leave it at that. The scouts are a faith based organisation, but faith is very broad in their view. My cub pack worked religion into the program this past year by climbing a mountain on the solstice and discussing pagan festivals and later considering the benefits of meditation when we did yoga. All the leaders in our pack are very sceptical agnostics and we don't worry so much about religion. I know other packs where religion is much more central to the activities.

In terms of the promise, I grew up in America and pledged allegiance to the flag and one nation under God every day. I don't think it meant too much, and when I talked to DS about the cub promise I discussed it in terms of respecting the larger culture. He had no trouble at all with God, it was allegiance to the Queen that made him giggle.

Now, whenever I tell him to do his best he laughs and references the Queen.

I would talk to the leaders of your particular group. They will be able to help - and won't be upset to be asked. It is the stickiest issue for Scouts.

However, I am not an atheist and don't really object. I can find some spirituality in a good trail run or sitting near the ocean. Our friends who are passionate atheists started a woodcraft group for their daughter.

I had a similar dilemma when my DS joined the beavers. I explained to him the history behind the scouts and why they used "God" in their promise. We discussed what God could mean for him so when he made his promise "I promise to do my best, to be kind and helpful and to love God" his god meant all the people of the world and the environment around him.

We did a similar exercise with remembrance Sunday where he concentrated on remembering the fallen and let the religious part wash over him.

Hi TD We were in exactly the same boat as you a few years ago. Ds was older than yours making his Cubs promise and he asked himself if he could miss out the God bit. The answer was a definite NO but he was told by the Cubs Leader that as long as he respected everybody's right to believe and was prepared to behave according to the riules etc etc then his own personal beliefs could be accomodated.
After his promise there was virtually never any mention of the G word or religion of any sort mentioned in any activities. (Although much fun, camping, sausages over campfires and wild games.) I would definitely not let atheism be a reason to miss out.

Having said that, ds2 joined a much more holy cubs group as it was attached to a church and we got many black marks for failing to send him on church parade. All a bit worthy and Much Less Fun. So - pick your group carefully!

YABU. The only stipulation of the scouting movement is that members should have faith in something. It's far more inclusive than other organisations. You can, of course, define faith any way you wish so that the god that is being loved in the Beaver Scout version of the promise is anything you like. And to think that being required to put your hands together and close your eyes in a school assembly is the equivalent of oppression against atheists suggests that you haven't actually experienced it....

I think some people do way too much overthinking on things that really dont matter in the grand scheme of things.

Let him join the bloody scouts if that is what he wants to do. If you dont believe in God, then its no different to letting your kid believe in Father Christmas for a few years either... it is a meaningless 3 letter word.

The benefits of your son being in the scouts, being part of a team, playing with his peers, learning skills, and enjoying his childhood is a far more important aspect of scouting than just saying a word at the beginning.

YANBU

I mean its a volentery religious'ish club. Of course they should change the rules for your own belives. In-fact all religious clubs, associations and schools should do the same.

I agree with squeakytoy. It doesn't mean anything. I mean, it's nice that you're bringing him up to have strong moral views and to understand the difference between right and wrong, lying and not lying, but actually if you're an atheist saying "I promise to do my duty to God" is as meaningful as saying "I promise to do my duty to the Giant Purple Teapot."

Technodad, are you not making too much of the religious aspect of this? Whilst you might not be happy about your child making a promise to God (or the Queen if you're a republican) can you not see past it for the sake of your child.

The scout / guide movement are so good for children, they're encouraged to think about & help others, learn new skills, make new friends and generally have fun. So surely, you can put up with a few words / hymns knowing that your child is doing an activity that's healthy and enjoyable.

PS - I'm a republican, however I'd never dream of stopping my DD going to Brownies just because I didn't want her to make a promise to the Queen.

I'm an atheist. I rail against bishops in the lords and church school entry policies and all that.
But when it comes to my daughter I am 100% pragmatic. As long as you are honest with them then I am sure a god oath is fine. " son, the rules say you have to say this thing to join. It's just like when you say prayers at school "

I would say if he wants to go then let him - I am a strong believer that regardless of your upbringing you make your own mind up about religion, and make your decisions about faith based on what feels right to you. Your son will choose what feels right to him regardless of whether he attends Scouts or not.

I help out in a local Rainbows group (not quite the same I know) and the words "I promise to love my God" appear in the Promise when members enrol, but the rest of the activities we do in the sessions aren't religion-based, and we have girls who join who are Christian, Atheist, Muslim and several other religions.

You could try explaining it to your son that the words mean that you are promising to do your duty to God if you believe that there is a God, and use it as an example that different people have different beliefs etc.

It seems a shame that he should miss out on activities that he may enjoy for the sake of one word, which is all the the word 'God' is if you are an Atheist

It's your God/god or you don't join. No atheist alternative, I'm afraid, for now. We've just encountered an issue with a Humanist at my troop who would like to take over as group scout leader, but can't take the promise, so can't be group scout leader. Try the Woodcraft Folk instead. If your athiest beliefs are important, you are being unreasonable to expect other groups to bend their rules to suit you.

I too would prefer to live in a totally secular society despite respecting all faiths and none and being a somewhat solitary Pagan who doesn't worship gods and goddesses. My dcs avoided, as a rule, Christian-based activities because I felt it would be hypocritical.

But when it came to Beavers and Cubs for my 2 dc, I weighed up the reality of just how much God was going to come into things and whether or not it was better for them to enjoy the really good activities in a well-run pack which all their friends attended. I also considered whether it would be better for them to attend the local Woodcraft Folk.

As it happens, they chose Beavers and Cubs over Woodcraft - they tried the latter but oddly, it was far more "preachy" (albeit not in a religious way) and not very well organised. At Beavers and subsequently Cubs, the whole promising to God issue never really caused any grief. Probably because this was, as much as is possible, a very secular pack which didn't attend church parades. Also, Akela was keenest on them "doing their best" and honouring the other promises rather than allowing God or the Queen to be constantly butting in!

If I were you, OP, I'd give Beavers a go or at the very least, talk to the leaders. Only you can know whether the local group will stress the Christian aspect of Scouting. If they do then your second option is probably best.