Scout Association - Promise - Athiests

[Technodad]

Hi all,

A bit of background: We are a family of atheists and we are bringing up our children to world aware and tolerant individuals who are inclusive of all members of society. This includes educating them about the beauty of human diversity and an understanding of different beliefs within our culture. If during this process one of my children finds faith, then we are open and flexible to this, as long as this is a choice of the child and not as a result of faith being pushed upon them by others.

The problem: As one of the kids is now 6 years old, we thought we would look into signing him up for Beaver Scouts. I went when I was a kid and it was fun. A slot has now come up in the local group, but when they phoned to ask if we wanted to join, we were asked if he would be willing to make the scout oath, which requires him to say the words "To do my duty to God and to the Queen". Ignoring the Queen for this discussion, since it is an indisputable proven fact that she is our Head of State, I have a bit of an issue with the ?God? bit. My problem is not because I have a issue with religion, but because it leave us atheists in a bit of a quandary ? we don?t like to be hypocrites.

I did some research online, and it seems that if you give evidence at court, or join the military, you can drop the ?god bit? from your oath if you are a non-believer. This means that even us heathens can be honest when we make these pledges, to do otherwise would be immoral. However, apparently the Scout Association refuses to follow suit and insists on every member being ?of faith? (it doesn?t matter what faith, as long as it has a god it seems).

So I have two options:

1. Give him the choice of joining and telling a lie (he is a very clever 6 year old and this is how he will see it).
2. Not let him go to save putting him in a difficult position.

The irony is that the Beaver group is happy for him to join, as long as he says the words, but they equally want him to follow the Scouting Laws which include: ?A Scout is to be trusted?, ?A Scout has courage in all difficulties?, ?A Scout has self-respect and respect for others?. The irony is, he will break these 3 of the 7 Laws in the process of joining just by saying these words!

I am fed up with society?s approach to atheism and its desires to discriminate against those who don?t believe. My son goes to a local C of E school and is made to pray in assembly ? i.e. he must put his hands together when everyone else does (we live in a rural community and there are not many schools to choose from ? ultimately your kids are sent to the school in catchment that has spaces). I completely encourage him to be exposed to religion, so I don?t want him to be taken out of assembly during group worship, but why can he not just sit there quietly and respectfully. We have asked him if he wants to be excused from religious assembly so that he doesn?t have to pray and he says that he doesn?t want to look different from the other children, which I can completely understand. Why is it that society is hell bent on highlighting the differences between one another, rather than celebrating the similarities?

So?.. Am I Being Unreasonable?

Technodad.

[/Rant]

Having looked at it now as a non believer in any god (but not an athiest as I said as that is a faith system to me, and unfortunately one of the more evangelical faiths arounds. Or an agnostic as it doesn't labelling as I'm happy there could be evidence either way one day) I'd be quite happy joining the scouts etc. I'd make my oath to "my dharma" as that's a nice word which will just ascribe my oath to my own world view, and is a standard that would need no discussion with the leaders - they may have trouble getting me my promise badge, but that's okay.

ComeIntoTheGardenMaud does appear to describe a much happier place with guiding, although I'm sure the reality is that local scout groups will come to something that works for everyone.

I suspect you're right, FredFredGeorge.

As I said, and as far as I can tell, I was ahead of our guidance when I let girls adapt the Promise to accommodate their own belief system (or lack of belief system), so now the guidance reflects what's actually been happening for years. I dare say there's a similar amount of variation within Scouting, with some groups sticking more rigidly to their guidance than others. (And to be fair, I have to say that, on the other side of the coin, I have Guiding colleagues who still tell the girls that church parade is mandatory, even though it hasn't been for (as far as I can tell) decades).

It's a completely personal choice ... Our cub group has Christians, muslims, one Hindu and a whole spectrum of undecideds and unbelievers. If the promise sticks in your child's throat there are other groups out there which might suit you better.

For me it's all about respect, I think all religion is a bunch of fairy stories but I wouldn't talk through someone saying Grace any more than I'd tell someone's toddler there is no Santa ... Militant atheists are just as much of a pain in the bum as any other kind of religious nut job.

Going back to the Op and his son's descision, I think what you are doing is fine.

As I said earlier, we had a very simelar problem when ds joined cubs. I believe in God, although we are not at all religious, but ds has been learning about evolution at school and had decided that he couldn't say the promise because it would be a lie. So I was left with a choice of encouraging him to lie, or making him miss out on something he has since got a huge amount out of.

The cub leader was brilliant at the time, she did check to see if there was anything else he could say, as did I by contacting the main organisation, but there wasn't. It's God or nothing. She did say that she admired my son's integrity, as most children just say the words whether they mean it or not, and I was very proud of my ds for not wanting to lie and say something he didn't mean. But he was really enjoying cubs at this point, because he had been to a few sessions before he was invested.

In the end, he decided he would say the promise, as long as the leaders and I knew that he didn't mean it. The leaders were great, and they all had separate chats with him and explained that they understood his opinion.

i'm atheist and ok with the guides 'love my god' with a small g but if i were a scout leader i'd go with the 'my dharma' line.. it's pretty non-descript but really as non-theist as you can get.

scouts and guides have both changed a lot in the last 100 years and just because the founders were christian does not mean the current movements are, in fact they exist in many non-christian countries with no conflict.

firstly, in case it has not already been mentioned, the Beaver promise contains no reference to duty to God.

The UK Beaver promise is I promise to do my best, to be kind and helpful and to love God.

If you want, you could look into the Baden Powell Scouts Association, whose promise for Beavers is:

I promise to do my best,
To obey my Leaders and parents
And to be a good Beaver.

No Godliness there.

However, there is NO requirement for a child to be a Christian in order to join the Scouts - nor any other religion. An absence of or avowed denial of faith IS a bar to becoming a leader within scouting. Kids are not required to have a faith.

OP you are woefully misinformed.

If you want scouty fun without the God stuff, consider the Woodcraft folk as an alternative. If there isnt a group near you, start one!

Scouting is open to all faiths, but a principle of the movement is that spirituality and a belief in a higher power are key to the development of young people.

Scouting is not just about a free babysitting service and some good fun for the kids. Its about developing the whole child, and that includes some tolerance and respect for other peoples faiths - something that you OP do not appear to have from your rant original post above. How very dare a faith school have your child say prayers in assemblies! Next thing you know they'll be wanting you to celebrate Christmas!!.....

What were we talking about, oh yes, the Beavers.

Sorry for going quiet for ages and then posting a long post, but I always catch up with it all at the end of the day after a massive debate.

With respect to the original question (before people started talking about Mother Teresa), overall I would say that the response is fairly equal. It seems that religious and atheists don't think it is unreasonable to think a promise should be binding, but a good proportion say I think too hard (its only a word, just say it) and push my own concerns onto my children - which is not an unreasonable comment. I guess we will have to agree to disagree with each other.

Now to join in on the general religion discussion:

The reason why being atheist is not a belief is very simple indeed.

I don't know what causes gravity (no one does before you get excited), scientists have "theories" which they conduct tests to prove, but they don't say that they "know" what causes gravity until they have proven their theory correct. Atheists don't "believe" anything about what causes gravity, and it doesn't really cause us much bother not "knowing". I don't feel I need to make something up to fill that void in my life.

However, I do know how the gravity of an item will affect other items. This can be measured accurately, and theories made and then proven. It is safe to say "I (scientists) know about the influence of gravity".

There are often cases somewhere in the middle. Scientists don't know exactly how old the planet Earth is (we may never know exactly). However, they can make measurements and use different measuring techniques to cross validate different results and constantly refine the answer. So although I don't "know" how old the earth is, I do know it is 4.54 billion years old (plus or minus about 1%). This is provable and stands up to scientific scrutiny.

hundreds of years ago people thought the world was flat and was the centre of the universe. Why would they think any differently, they had very little data. This wasn't a "fact" though, it was a "belief". When scientists worked out that neither of these statements were true there was an up-raw, but that process changed societies understanding from beliefs to facts. This process has been ongoing and will continue at an exponential rate as humans become more technologically advance.

All the main religions are based upon an historical account of events written into a book. These accounts have been translated, copied and modified a huge number of times and political bias has been added along the way for good measure (to scare people into following the rules so that society doesn't fall apart - or to get more wealth for the religious leaders). I am sure some of the events are "facts" but others will be an interpretation of events based upon a very limited scientific understanding - i.e. a belief. If the events of the bible were to be played out in the modern world (ignoring the fact that Jesus would have been Taser'ed and locked up for holding illegal protests), the understanding of the events and the way they were recorded would be very different.

Am I evangelical? Yes, because you can be evangelical about anything, including science (ardent or zealous enthusiasm for a cause). I wouldn't say I am an aggressive atheist, because I have friends from many different religions and I have never discussed their faith with them (unless they raise the debate), and would never try to tell them they are wrong - this is not what friends are for).

Can I prove there aren't fairies at the bottom of my garden - no, but I can't prove there isn't an invisible elephant either, or a god for that matter. The argument that it must be there because no one can prove is isn't is pretty weak and founded on no evidence. Does it bother me that when I die my body will be composted by worms and the universe will continue without my consciousness in it any-longer - Yes. I used to cry myself to sleep thinking about this horrid thought when I was 8 years old (clearly Sunday school went over my head). I can't change this, but as an adult I have come to terms with it as just "LIFE".

Technodad

HattiFattner

Scouting is not just about a free babysitting service and some good fun for the kids. Its about developing the whole child, and that includes some tolerance and respect for other peoples faiths - something that you OP do not appear to have from your rant original post above. How very dare a faith school have your child say prayers in assemblies! Next thing you know they'll be wanting you to celebrate Christmas!!.....

What a strange post. My posts have made it abundantly clear that I want DS be part of the Beavers because of the multitude of benefits it can offer him. I even went on to say it was a good thing for him to be around people from different backgrounds to learn tolerance, respect etc. Please don't call me woefully ill-informed if you aren't going to bother reading what I have written.

I didn't choose for my DS to go to a faith school, my local council did. Is it not possible for you to consider that I want the best for my children, but feel that the choice of faith should be down to families to decide, with children taught in a secular environment? Rather than to have a particular religion pushed upon them while they should be learning about Maths, Language, Diversity, All Religions, Science, Sport, Fun.

I agree with many of the contributors who point out that it is unreasonable of atheists who want to join organisations etc with faith origin, practice and ethos. Just what sort of atheists are they? That's like a Christian joining an organisation denouncing Christ!
The woodcraft folk might be an option for an alternative for OP or she could set up her own organisation - if they did what would the motto be??

Greyson Perry has a good one ... Hold Your Beliefs Lightly!

( Ducks and runs away )

Technodad you're answer for why athiesm is not a faith is rather poor - firstly the provable existence of a god or not is pretty irrelevant to faith, particularly Buddhism but also some Hindu groups, two of the largest faiths in the world do not believe in a god. Of course they may have some other ideas that you would disagree with and are as unprovable as the existence or non-existence of god. But it highlights how irrelevant god is to faith.

Yes you can't prove any of the scientific knowledge we have now (some maths, but without unifying forces we can't prove anything) but we don't say - "Gravity is like this", we say we have Newtons model for gravity at most distances, we have General Relativity to go a bit further, but we're still screwed on what happens at really small distances, so really we don't know. That's very different from your view, where you state there is not a god, and won't even entertain the idea that there might be.

For me, the question of the existence of a god is on the same level as the existence of th fairies, I can pretty much guarantee there's not, I'm so convinced there's not that I'm not even bothered to go and look despite the riches I could get from finding them. The same with a god, it's not worth it, even to make Pascals wager. But I can't say I'm an athiest because well there could be, just like their could be fairies - why don't you feel the need to label yourself and evangelise about peoples belief in fairies?

I could perhaps same I'm an agnostic, but again that deliveres the entire question a gravitas I don't believe it warrants, just like I would never label myself about my unknowing state on the fairies - 'cos it's pointless. And more importantly it's none of my business what other peoples opinions on fairies are, I'll respect them, if it's easy enough for me I'll accede to their reasonable requests under their faith.

Organised religions certainly have problems, and their history is undoubtedly about control (and also rebellion against control by new groups), but that's an entirely seperate issue to athiesm as a faith, although at least it's not very organised.

Technodad I used to cry myself to sleep thinking about my Self existing for eternity as a conscious being in Heaven... now I think the idea of non-self much more comforting! (as a total aside to your very interesting post.)

Curiously, I am an atheist who really likes church, who finds the liturgy very comforting, who likes to sing, pray (to whom? ) take Communion and generally participate in a good old community bonding experience. Explaining 'God' to my son (DD at 1.5 is just interested in Communion 'snacks') I tell him it means the energy in the Universe, and that church is a place to think, be calm, and learn how to be a good person from books written a long time ago.

Which is all a round-a-bout way of saying: I think your DS could be fine at Scouts if you work out a way of explaining God that doesn't have to include a Big Teapot in the Sky. (Am aware that my views are slightly strange, but probably no stranger than the PP who described himself as a 'Possibilian' )

florist - me, I am that strange person! (see post above!)

technodad you're overthinking it.
Typical atheist
If he wants to join the scouts let him join and do all the scouty stuff

I am an assistant scout leader and DD is in the beavers.
I took the promise despite being an athiest because at the time I was 14 and I really wanted to work with kids in beavers.
We have always said 'and to love god'.
Most kids that age just repeat it back and don't really take it in.
But we do a promise session before hand and explain that God can be anything or anyone you believe in. It can be for any faith. But if you don't have one then you are just promising to love anyone you believe that does a good job. That can be mum or dad or gran anyone who you think does a good job raising you and teaching you right from wrong.
We also only attend one service a year which is the poppy service as it is less about faith and more about remembering people who died and the whole community gets involved.

ChocolateIsAFoodGroup I used to cry myself to sleep thinking about my Self existing for eternity as a conscious being in Heaven... now I think the idea of non-self much more comforting!

This really made me smile (not the idea of you crying). I think it says everything about what makes human diversity brilliant. It really emphasises nicely the fact that that everyone takes comfort in different things and need different environments to make sense of the world around them. Although my (long and fairly boring) science explanation just won't stack up for many people, that shouldn't matter to me, and it shouldn't have to matter to others.

The main thing is that we all treat each other with respect and equality, whatever our perspective.

teenagedirtbad ^But we do a promise session before hand and explain that God can be anything or anyone you believe in. It can be for any faith. But if you don't have one then you are just promising to love anyone you believe that does a good job. That can be mum or dad or gran anyone who you think does a good job raising you and teaching you right from wrong.
We also only attend one service a year which is the poppy service as it is less about faith and more about remembering people who died and the whole community gets involved.^

Thank you for your post, that sounds like a perfect environment to be - can I join?

Hopefully my local pack has a similarly inclusive view.

chocasfood - in what sort of Church do you receive communion?
If you get so much out of attending church services have you not thought that there may me something meaninful in it for you that your posts do not portray

Technodad now we need to all hold hands and sing kumbaya (sp?)

Hope you find a satisfactory solution to your dilemma!

florist it's a church in Berkeley, CA They take all sorts, including me

I know, I'm a strange atheist.....

Oh, and I go about twice a year, on average.... Christmas always does it for me!

i'm pagan. for a long time i've battled with how to deal with 'God' being brought into my son's conciousness. He doesn't know I'm Pagan as such, just that i celebrate Hallowe'en and Christmas in my own way.
He has recently been invested at Beavers and made a promise which did involve God. I felt uncomfortable at the thought of this, but then sat back and realised that I grew up being taught all about God and Jesus in a CofE primary and I still managed to grow up and find out about all religion and have found the one that I feel comfortable with.
I'm not atheist, but I just don't feel comfortable with the concept of God. I would never make a promise to God (as a god-parent for example) because I could not make that promise knowing i did not mean it. I held that view for my son too - and then thought 'it really doesn't matter'. He's 6 - I have plenty of time to discuss religion with him.
He said his promise - then on the way home he asked who God was. When he was asked 'who do you think god is' he replied Merlin!

Hmm, well I was brought up by born-agains and would describe myself as agnostic bordering on atheist. I do find your op somewhat contradictory though - you're not sounding very tolerant, you say that they are welcome to find faith as long as it's not pushed onto them. Yet it sounds like you push athiesm as a belief system on them.

Personally I'm being very very careful not to push my anti religious (well it's evangelism I can't abide more than anything, not religion per SE) beliefs on my DC. I even allowed them to attend a Sunday school for a year when my parents took them because they asked they could go.

I do know that at some point in their lives (usually adolescent) it's completely normal to rebel against your family's beliefs, I would tread very carefully. I'm resigned to one of mine finding Jesus at some point purely to spite me :o

Buy your DS a teddy bear, or fluffy toy of any kind and name him "God". Problem solved. No lies involved.

aurynne Buy your DS a teddy bear, or fluffy toy of any kind and name him "God". Problem solved. No lies involved

GOOD CALL. Consider it done!