Scout Association - Promise - Athiests

[Technodad]

Hi all,

A bit of background: We are a family of atheists and we are bringing up our children to world aware and tolerant individuals who are inclusive of all members of society. This includes educating them about the beauty of human diversity and an understanding of different beliefs within our culture. If during this process one of my children finds faith, then we are open and flexible to this, as long as this is a choice of the child and not as a result of faith being pushed upon them by others.

The problem: As one of the kids is now 6 years old, we thought we would look into signing him up for Beaver Scouts. I went when I was a kid and it was fun. A slot has now come up in the local group, but when they phoned to ask if we wanted to join, we were asked if he would be willing to make the scout oath, which requires him to say the words "To do my duty to God and to the Queen". Ignoring the Queen for this discussion, since it is an indisputable proven fact that she is our Head of State, I have a bit of an issue with the ?God? bit. My problem is not because I have a issue with religion, but because it leave us atheists in a bit of a quandary ? we don?t like to be hypocrites.

I did some research online, and it seems that if you give evidence at court, or join the military, you can drop the ?god bit? from your oath if you are a non-believer. This means that even us heathens can be honest when we make these pledges, to do otherwise would be immoral. However, apparently the Scout Association refuses to follow suit and insists on every member being ?of faith? (it doesn?t matter what faith, as long as it has a god it seems).

So I have two options:

1. Give him the choice of joining and telling a lie (he is a very clever 6 year old and this is how he will see it).
2. Not let him go to save putting him in a difficult position.

The irony is that the Beaver group is happy for him to join, as long as he says the words, but they equally want him to follow the Scouting Laws which include: ?A Scout is to be trusted?, ?A Scout has courage in all difficulties?, ?A Scout has self-respect and respect for others?. The irony is, he will break these 3 of the 7 Laws in the process of joining just by saying these words!

I am fed up with society?s approach to atheism and its desires to discriminate against those who don?t believe. My son goes to a local C of E school and is made to pray in assembly ? i.e. he must put his hands together when everyone else does (we live in a rural community and there are not many schools to choose from ? ultimately your kids are sent to the school in catchment that has spaces). I completely encourage him to be exposed to religion, so I don?t want him to be taken out of assembly during group worship, but why can he not just sit there quietly and respectfully. We have asked him if he wants to be excused from religious assembly so that he doesn?t have to pray and he says that he doesn?t want to look different from the other children, which I can completely understand. Why is it that society is hell bent on highlighting the differences between one another, rather than celebrating the similarities?

So?.. Am I Being Unreasonable?

Technodad.

[/Rant]

atheism is a faith too

Yep. And not spotting trains is a hobby.

Fotheringay ? assuming your defining fairies as little people living in our material physical world, you could provide evidence that there were no fairies at the bottom of your garden through careful observation and experiment - you could never prove it as you can?t prove a negative - but you could demonstrate that it is very unlikely to be true. Unless you define God as a little old man made of flesh and blood and sitting on the cloud, which is not the commonly used definitaion of God among the world?s main religions it?s going to be much harder to demonstrate the existance or non-existance of God. So if you are an atheist, as opposed to an agnostic, you have chosen to believe in something unprovable (you may believe it to be likely but that is a belief). Presumeably you have faith in your own beliefs, so it is a faith (small ?f?). The not-a-faith not-a-belief position is that of the agnostic.

So if you are an atheist, as opposed to an agnostic, you have chosen to believe in something unprovable

I have heard this argument many times, and it is just semantics. By that rationale, not believing in the Loch Ness monster is an act of faith on a par with religious beliefs. Having an opinion on a work of art is an act of faith. Not being sure where you put your glasses is an act of faith. Not worshipping the flying spaghetti monster is a religious practice.

I understand that to a religious mind, the idea of someone just NOT believing in anything is unsettling. Far easier to say 'ah but your atheism is a faith too, so we are the same on some level'. But really it's not the same.

Catkinsmakesmesneeze: "Unless you define God as a little old man made of flesh and blood and sitting on the cloud, which is not the commonly used definitaion of God among the world?s main religions it?s going to be much harder to demonstrate the existance or non-existance of God."

But very many of the world's religions, ancient and modern, believe not in God, but in gods. There's a sun god, a moon god, a rain god, and so on. Do you believe in them? If not, why not? Surely - by your argument - not believing in the sun god is as much an act of faith as believing in him?

Going back to Technodad's reply, I remember the importance of the promise I made when I was a Brownie. It's absolutely stuck with me that when I say I promise to do something, then I will do it. For that reason, now in my late 40s, I still don't make promises lightly and only use the word "promise" if I know I mean it and will be every effort to fulfill it. That's one of the influences in my life being part of Scouting and Guiding had on me. I would therefore think that Technodad is wrong to indicate that it's okay for his DS to tell a white lie, but his DS should think carefully about what "my god" should mean to him (family, friends, environment, etc) and make his promise accordingly. To promise is to take on a responsibility for doing something (and hopefully something positive). A promise is a very important thing.

My understanding of Scouting is that you have to be of a monowhatsit faith, as long as you believe in one god it's fine but atheism or faiths with many gods are a problem.
If I'm wrong then I do apologise but DP did some work with the movement a few years back and this was the official line at the time.
Brownies was verrrr religious when I was a child, also very dull, but it does seem to depend on the pack, so I'd have a chat with the leader and see what they say. Some might easily accomodate your DS and others may not.

oh and I don't think you are BU to not want your son to compromise himself - however if you can stand to send him to a CofE school I would've thought cubs is nothing!

(I am not an atheist myself btw)

I was a brownie, guide, ranger and a brown owl.
I am also a life long atheist.
At age 7 I decided that Jesus said be nice to other people and that would have to do for the duty to God bit.
I've got an enormous amount out of Guiding and so has DD1. DD2 is a scout and greatly enjoying it.
The religion bit is really annoying, but there is nothing else for children that offers the same things.
Perhaps, being a bit flippant, like Father Christmas, some lies do more good than harm.

I am more concerned about the pledging allegiance to the Queen bollocks than the religion thing.
I am very fond of my country - not too keen on that pack of overprivileged inbred Germans though.

I have heard this argument many times, and it is just semantics. By that rationale, not believing in the Loch Ness monster is an act of faith on a par with religious beliefs. Having an opinion on a work of art is an act of faith. Not being sure where you put your glasses is an act of faith. Not worshipping the flying spaghetti monster is a religious practice.

I would grant you that belief in or the lack of belief in the Loch Ness Monster does require faith... I don't know that it would be on par with religious beliefs or the lack there of because having (or not having) a belief in the LNM doesn't really affect your day to day life that much. Regardless, that is still faith so I don't know what exactly you were trying to prove by bringing that up.

Having an opinion on something, however, is not the same as having faith. Faith defined is: "Complete trust or confidence in someone or something" where as an opinion is "A view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge." You could not say that I have complete trust or confidence in the Mona Lisa (except that it exists, I suppose, but that's not what you meant).

Athiesm is faith (you have complete trust or confidence that there is no God). Faith does not have to be an active thing... But it is still faith, like it or not.

overprivileged inbred Germans though.

Hey, don't be xenophobic, - if we're going to have a monarchy, why shouldn't they be German? Its not like it would be 'fairer' if they were purebred Anglo Saxons anyway.

DD is really enjoying Beavers and we are really enjoying talking about all the stuff she's doing.

Recent evenings have been heavily about the community, they met the Vicar at the local church, the local police, the coastguard, firestation, homeless shelter......

This has all driven home strong ethical points about living in a community without having a Supreme Being watching you.

It's the school I have problems with mixing up the God stuff with numbers and letters, some things are facts, some are stories and the teachers should at least make that clear.

Faith defined is: "Complete trust or confidence in someone or something" where as an opinion is "A view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge."

So, by your distinction, the difference between 'faith' and 'an opinion' is that faith requires 'complete trust' in something?

But I thought that religious people had doubts about their faith all the time (a reading of Mother Theresa's letters and journals indicates periods in her life with very powerful doubts about the existence of god) and that they were accepted as normal and understandable? Many of the religious people I have spoken to say that they often have doubts about their faith, but these are made up for the times when they don't have such doubts.

So, at those moments of uncertainty and doubt (which I believe even Jesus experienced) your definition has their religion moving from 'faith' to 'an opinion'?

if we're going to have a monarchy, why shouldn't they be German

Then let's get them to ditch the Windsor nonsense and revert to Saxe-Coburg-Gotha.
Better still let's ditch them.

*So, by your distinction, the difference between 'faith' and 'an opinion' is that faith requires 'complete trust' in something?

But I thought that religious people had doubts about their faith all the time (a reading of Mother Theresa's letters and journals indicates periods in her life with very powerful doubts about the existence of god) and that they were accepted as normal and understandable? Many of the religious people I have spoken to say that they often have doubts about their faith, but these are made up for the times when they don't have such doubts.

So, at those moments of uncertainty and doubt (which I believe even Jesus experienced) your definition has their religion moving from 'faith' to 'an opinion'?*

There is a significant difference between doubting your choices, and doubting that there is a God. Jesus was tempted and doubted that He was doing the right thing, but He never doubted the existence of God. He is God.

I can't speak for others and the doubts they go through, but I have never doubted my faith... I have doubted my choices and my understandings, but the fundamental aspects of my faith are my truth. Just as there is oxygen to breath, there is God.

Also, these aren't my definitions of faith. These are the definitions of faith and opinion as detailed by dictionaries at hand.

There is a significant difference between doubting your choices, and doubting that there is a God.

You may never have doubted that there is a god, but plenty of religious people have moments when they do. This is accepted as an understandable part of religious belief, - you are allowed 'wobbles' in your certainty, without it making you a 'bad' christian, jew or whatever. It is not demanded that you remain rock-solid certain of everything in order to maintain your religious credentials.

So, I ask you again, by your definition, does a moment of uncertainty in the existence of god mean that your faith becomes an opinion?

I am a Brown Owl.

It's interesting to me here that the Scouts' official line on the Promise isn't quite the same as the Guides'. Girlguiding UK says that the movement is open to anyone willing to make the Promise (which includes the words to love my God) but what people mean by their God is very much up to them - for some of my Brownies it probably is God in the traditional Judaeo-Christian sense, for others it's probably a sense of living life in a way that's considerate of other people (which is not, obviously, confined to Christians or people of other faiths). We've recently had a message from HQ saying that - so that we can ensure that Guiding remains inclusive - we can agree to modify the wording of the Promise if any girl has difficulty with it. In fact, I've been doing that for years but this was (I think) the first official confirmation.

LennyGodber Scouting does not require you to be a theist, let alone a monotheist, they are are very happy to have Hindu members (everything from athiests to polytheists) or Buddhists (strictly athiest).

*You may never have doubted that there is a god, but plenty of religious people have moments when they do. This is accepted as an understandable part of religious belief, - you are allowed 'wobbles' in your certainty, without it making you a 'bad' christian, jew or whatever. It is not demanded that you remain rock-solid certain of everything in order to maintain your religious credentials.

So, I ask you again, by your definition, does a moment of uncertainty in the existence of god mean that your faith becomes an opinion?*

Without trying to seem like I am not directly answering your question, I honestly don't know anyone who fits the description of wobbles as you define them.
The wobbles most people have (as I have experienced) are closer to "does God really listen to me," "does God really love me," "why does God let bad things happen to good people," etc. etc. etc. These are all challenging questions which people with faith ask themselves all the time... They also don't question the reality of God.
I am afraid that by answering your question, I'd be lending some kind of truth to this perception that religious people are walking around all the time saying "I don't really know if there is a God" which they don't really often do.

But, because I don't want to be accused of hedging, if you are having a real, existential crisis where you are fundamentally doubting everything you believe to be true... then yes, I think an "opinion" would be a fair way to define your beliefs until you come out of it with faith one way or the other.

Of course, that is true of athiests as well as religious people.

Privately, Mother Teresa experienced doubts and struggles over her religious beliefs which lasted nearly fifty years until the end of her life, during which "she felt no presence of God whatsoever"....Mother Teresa described, after ten years of doubt, a short period of renewed faith.

I remember reading an article just after she died, which is why Mother Theresa is cropping up as an example, with extracts from her letters in which she clearly expressed her fear that there was no god at all. She came through this crisis of faith, but had her moments of doubts. I have spoken to other religious people who also have said they have moments were they doubt the existence of of god.

this perception that religious people are walking around all the time saying "I don't really know if there is a God" which they don't really often do.

They don't have to be doing it 'often'. Just sometimes.

Re Mother Theresa -
extract from one of her letters reads

Where is my faith? Even deep down? there is nothing but emptiness and darkness... If there be God ? please forgive me.

The line 'if there be a god' clearly indicates doubt. Would you therefore call her faith an opinion because it was not one hundred percent consistently sure throughout her life?

I was a venture scout leader for several years and I had atheist members. They either just said the word God or they chose to say something else (I can't actually remember what) but I had no problem with it as long as they were making their committment.

If they are saying you must say the words then you will either have to just let him say them or not go although maybe another beaver colony wouldn't be so strict.

It would be a shame for him to miss out because of one word in the promise. Would saying "my god" not be acceptable to you as that would be down to personal interpretation and could mean something like "goodness" rather than actual God?

"this perception that religious people are walking around all the time saying "I don't really know if there is a God" which they don't really often do.

They don't have to be doing it 'often'. Just sometimes."

What? Seriously, what do you mean by this? Honestly, I am at a complete loss.

I agree with tigermoll.

It seems a shame that some parents and children have to jump through semantic hoops to square their beliefs with the scout promise. It's like saying "christmas pudding doesn't have to mean christmas pudding, it could mean any pudding eaten at christmas" or something like that. When the real definition is obvious.

I understand the wording's not likely to change anytime soon though.

tigermoll In answer to this question: "The line 'if there be a god' clearly indicates doubt. Would you therefore call her faith an opinion because it was not one hundred percent consistently sure throughout her life?"

Please see my earlier response:
But, because I don't want to be accused of hedging, if you are having a real, existential crisis where you are fundamentally doubting everything you believe to be true... then yes, I think an "opinion" would be a fair way to define your beliefs until you come out of it with faith one way or the other

I would say that during Mother Teresa's tortuous years of doubt, she would probably be the first to admit that she held nothing as strong as faith and would probably describe her belief as more closely related to "opinion." However, as you said yourself, she came through this crisis with her faith in tact.