Scout Association - Promise - Athiests

[Technodad]

Hi all,

A bit of background: We are a family of atheists and we are bringing up our children to world aware and tolerant individuals who are inclusive of all members of society. This includes educating them about the beauty of human diversity and an understanding of different beliefs within our culture. If during this process one of my children finds faith, then we are open and flexible to this, as long as this is a choice of the child and not as a result of faith being pushed upon them by others.

The problem: As one of the kids is now 6 years old, we thought we would look into signing him up for Beaver Scouts. I went when I was a kid and it was fun. A slot has now come up in the local group, but when they phoned to ask if we wanted to join, we were asked if he would be willing to make the scout oath, which requires him to say the words "To do my duty to God and to the Queen". Ignoring the Queen for this discussion, since it is an indisputable proven fact that she is our Head of State, I have a bit of an issue with the ?God? bit. My problem is not because I have a issue with religion, but because it leave us atheists in a bit of a quandary ? we don?t like to be hypocrites.

I did some research online, and it seems that if you give evidence at court, or join the military, you can drop the ?god bit? from your oath if you are a non-believer. This means that even us heathens can be honest when we make these pledges, to do otherwise would be immoral. However, apparently the Scout Association refuses to follow suit and insists on every member being ?of faith? (it doesn?t matter what faith, as long as it has a god it seems).

So I have two options:

1. Give him the choice of joining and telling a lie (he is a very clever 6 year old and this is how he will see it).
2. Not let him go to save putting him in a difficult position.

The irony is that the Beaver group is happy for him to join, as long as he says the words, but they equally want him to follow the Scouting Laws which include: ?A Scout is to be trusted?, ?A Scout has courage in all difficulties?, ?A Scout has self-respect and respect for others?. The irony is, he will break these 3 of the 7 Laws in the process of joining just by saying these words!

I am fed up with society?s approach to atheism and its desires to discriminate against those who don?t believe. My son goes to a local C of E school and is made to pray in assembly ? i.e. he must put his hands together when everyone else does (we live in a rural community and there are not many schools to choose from ? ultimately your kids are sent to the school in catchment that has spaces). I completely encourage him to be exposed to religion, so I don?t want him to be taken out of assembly during group worship, but why can he not just sit there quietly and respectfully. We have asked him if he wants to be excused from religious assembly so that he doesn?t have to pray and he says that he doesn?t want to look different from the other children, which I can completely understand. Why is it that society is hell bent on highlighting the differences between one another, rather than celebrating the similarities?

So?.. Am I Being Unreasonable?

Technodad.

[/Rant]

What? Seriously, what do you mean by this? Honestly, I am at a complete loss.

The argument has gone like this:

'Atheism is a faith because of its certainty.'
'But not all religious people are 'sure' all the time, does that make their faith an opinion?'

Then you join, and say that you don't know religious people who aren't sure about god, only about how to practise their religion. You add that my perception that religious people are walking around all the time with crises of faith is misleading.

In my last post I was agreeing with you, but saying that my question about whether faith requires sureness all the time means that a crisis of faith doesn't have to be 'all the time' to be relevant. Whether people are walking around 'all the time' wondering about god, or only 'some of the time' still means that it is relevant to ask if that makes their faith an opinion or not.

From my own experience, I have found that many of the religious people I have spoken to have had moments where they doubted the existence of god. You clearly havent. Possibly the only conclusion we can draw from this is that we know different people

God is Love. Love the earth, love life, love helping others, spread love not war.

Thank you! I was so confused.

Nickname, cross-posted, - I see we are both happy to regard people's religious beliefs as opinion on all the points that they are not 100% sure about. Excellent.

On the back of all this, the most important thing is that a child is making a promise.

OP needs to be clear with his DS that he understands the meaning of making a promise and should be clear what he is making a promise to do. If OP and DS can't square this up, then DS shouldn't make the promise and should look to do something other than Beavers.

At the end of the day, faith is about believing in something you can't see, but you still believe it to be real.

I can't see God or Jesus, but I do consider myself to be a Christian. I have nothing against anyone of any other faith or no faith at all.

With reference to Mother Teresa, we can't be sure what she meant by her letters, but I don't think that her feelings or doubts are anything other than a reflection of her life, her opinions and her humanness.

The Apostles Jesus walked with in the Bible doubted him at times (according to the Bible) and they were actually standing right in front of him. All that shows is their human fallibility.

Is no doubt that some modern day believers (including Mother Teresa) have doubts, but that is our issue, doesn't mean that God isn't real.

Christian vs non-believer threads on MN never do very well though, so I'm not expecting much.

OP - I'm glad your son and you had a chat about the Scouts and have cleared up his worries a bit.

Atheists on the whole tend to view an absence of faith as rational, and not a belief system. If this is the case, then in what way is it discriminatory to be asked to go along with rituals associated with a group that does have a belief system? It's not as though it's offending your own belief system, after all, as atheism isn't a belief system.

Why can't you just shrug your shoulders and go along with it? No-one's forcing you to believe as well. You could just play along for the sake of good manners.

But playing along with it can feel like lying.

Although I agree good manners sometimes win out for the sake of not upsetting people, but it still feels wrong in a not being true to yourself way.

My DP is an atheist and a cub leader ... If you don't believe there is a God then what's the problem? There's nothing out there who cares what you do or don't promise ...

I love the constant illogic of supposedly ?rational? atheists on this site. You all need a course in syllogism.

It?s baffling how atheists seek out the excellence of moral attainment, achieved through Christian values, in their children?s schools or hobbies.

It is intellectually inconsistent for an atheist to join a club whose founder stated, ?We aim for the practice of Christianity in their everyday life and dealings, and not merely the profession of theology on Sundays?.

But the supreme irrationality is to then complain at the mention of God. Such a culture of entitlement! It makes me laugh.

Couldn?t your kids join the Brights and form a Youth Movement dedicated to ?erm ? a naturalistic worldview free of supernatural and mystical elements, undertaking social and civic actions designed to influence a society otherwise permeated with supernaturalism?

Rather than an organisation that defines its values as ?adherence to spiritual principles, loyalty to the religion that expresses them and acceptance of the duties resulting therefrom??

There's your own integrity.

(that was to Fecklessdizzy)

fothering If your integrity says going along with it means you're not being 'true to yourself' then just don't join the organisation. Seeking to change the entire organisation in the interests of being true to yourself just seems a bit, well, self-centred to me.

Nothing wrong with having your own views. But not foisting them on others surely works both ways?

I probably wouldn't join an organisation like that. And doubt I've got the energy to try to change them.

The times I'm thinking of are things like christenings etc. I am a godparent, so I had to make vows that I knew I wouldn't keep, but saying no would've caused a lot of resentment in the family (who have a history of holding grudges! plus I really didn't want to upset anyone) so I did it, but I felt backed into a corner, and still feel uncomfortable about it. Ultimately my love for the family member trumped my own integrity.

I can't speak for Scouting, but Guiding currently has 40,000 girls on waiting lists because of a national shortage of leaders. If Feckless's partner is comfortable making the Promise and being a leader then that does a lot more practical good, offering exciting opportunities to children, than all the hand-wringing about what is God and what is faith.

I went to bunnies/brownies/guides and venture scouts. I was probably agnostic from the age of 9 and to be honest i went to church and pretended to pray - i even crossed my fingers behind my back during the promises !

maybe its time to have that conversation - its ok to say certain things in public while believing something else privately (like when mummy says her friend is looking lovely or daddy says mummys bum does not look big in that )

My ds currently thinks god is the name of his dinner lady because they all thank god before they eat

Two separate issues though, the shortage of leaders is one problem, the god issue is another. It's not like stopping talking about god will suddenly make loads of people apply to be leaders.

But, fotheringay, I think there is some degree of connection.

If people get the idea that you have to be a fervent Christian (or member of another faith) to be a leader, that may deter some people who would enjoy being a leader and bring something positive to it. As I've said before, my experience is in Guiding which has a slightly different take on all of this, but it seems to me that the Promise is a highly subjective thing and means very different things to different people, and all that matters is whether anyone (child or adult) feels comfortable enough to make it. It doesn't depend on one fixed notion of 'God' or 'your God' or on anyone else's judgment of whether people are compromising their own beliefs or lack thereof.

Yes, I do agree. I thought of that just after posting!

I don't think it's a big deal, really. I would let my son join and make the promise as part of his fun beaver experience. I am probably more up for being a hypocrite than most of you though, as I find life is full of compromise once you have children anyway.

I agree with waxmyboard, my children love Beavers and did a lot for the local community while they were there. As well building confidence, it also reinforced the values of individual responsibility and to think of other people.

I think stressing about the wording of the promise shows you have too much time on your hands.

If you've never been hypocritical in your whole entire life you are either stinking rich or exceedingly dull. IMO.

Went through this recently with my son.

Scout leader helped - said 'God' could mean whatever we wanted it to and DS settled on 'doing the right thing'. So he just said his promise with God in it and never mentioned it again.

YABU
DS goes to a CoE school because that's what there is. Going to cubs/scouts though is entirely optional. Kids can contribute to society/ participate in lots of fun activities through many other routes. Not read whole thread but there will be regular Church Parades too. If you stop your DS going to those it's becoming a very selective approach to being a member of cubs.

Just to add, that I agree with munstersmum - it is optional.

I am an athesit - my son declares himself to be one, too. He wants to join scouts/I want him to join scouts/Scouts are happy to have him. He said the promise (Beavers) with God in it (His 'God' being whatver he chose it to mean, as above). He goes to the church services and parades and learns a little more about religion (good) and shows respect during prayers etc. It really isn't a big deal - just a little nod to history and tradition.