Scout Association - Promise - Athiests

[Technodad]

Hi all,

A bit of background: We are a family of atheists and we are bringing up our children to world aware and tolerant individuals who are inclusive of all members of society. This includes educating them about the beauty of human diversity and an understanding of different beliefs within our culture. If during this process one of my children finds faith, then we are open and flexible to this, as long as this is a choice of the child and not as a result of faith being pushed upon them by others.

The problem: As one of the kids is now 6 years old, we thought we would look into signing him up for Beaver Scouts. I went when I was a kid and it was fun. A slot has now come up in the local group, but when they phoned to ask if we wanted to join, we were asked if he would be willing to make the scout oath, which requires him to say the words "To do my duty to God and to the Queen". Ignoring the Queen for this discussion, since it is an indisputable proven fact that she is our Head of State, I have a bit of an issue with the ?God? bit. My problem is not because I have a issue with religion, but because it leave us atheists in a bit of a quandary ? we don?t like to be hypocrites.

I did some research online, and it seems that if you give evidence at court, or join the military, you can drop the ?god bit? from your oath if you are a non-believer. This means that even us heathens can be honest when we make these pledges, to do otherwise would be immoral. However, apparently the Scout Association refuses to follow suit and insists on every member being ?of faith? (it doesn?t matter what faith, as long as it has a god it seems).

So I have two options:

1. Give him the choice of joining and telling a lie (he is a very clever 6 year old and this is how he will see it).
2. Not let him go to save putting him in a difficult position.

The irony is that the Beaver group is happy for him to join, as long as he says the words, but they equally want him to follow the Scouting Laws which include: ?A Scout is to be trusted?, ?A Scout has courage in all difficulties?, ?A Scout has self-respect and respect for others?. The irony is, he will break these 3 of the 7 Laws in the process of joining just by saying these words!

I am fed up with society?s approach to atheism and its desires to discriminate against those who don?t believe. My son goes to a local C of E school and is made to pray in assembly ? i.e. he must put his hands together when everyone else does (we live in a rural community and there are not many schools to choose from ? ultimately your kids are sent to the school in catchment that has spaces). I completely encourage him to be exposed to religion, so I don?t want him to be taken out of assembly during group worship, but why can he not just sit there quietly and respectfully. We have asked him if he wants to be excused from religious assembly so that he doesn?t have to pray and he says that he doesn?t want to look different from the other children, which I can completely understand. Why is it that society is hell bent on highlighting the differences between one another, rather than celebrating the similarities?

So?.. Am I Being Unreasonable?

Technodad.

[/Rant]

Technodad I am sure you like to think of yourself as the ultimate rationalist but for me you are the mirror image of Christian fundamentalists or indeed any sort of fundamentalists. Only fundamentalist atheists or Christian view the bible as literally and the way you present aspects of early Christian history as somehow new or insightful as profound is sweet. Have you been digesting Dawkins
without any critical faculty, Do you actually have a DC who wants to tie knots in scouts or beavers or are you just engaging in an anti religious rant? If the latter then you are far from convincing

:) Make sure he does his duty to that teddy!

That's a tough one. I'm pretty devoutly religious, but agree it would be really hard to have your DC saying something you didn't believe in. But I don't really think the wording should change, as they were begun as a faith organization.

I agree Florist, the first sentence of the OP spoke volumes, their children are being brought up atheists, just as indoctrinated as those Christians he so looks down on.

I think the solution has been found, except the cuddly toy should obviously be a dyslexic canine .

Im going to join a football club. Before I sign on the dotted line, Im going to wax lyrical about the positivity of the great game and how its going to be great for my kids development. Only I dont hold with all this nonsense about the offside rule. SO we are going to ignore that and refuse to play the game if they insist on the offside rule. Not only that, but Im going to try and change the whole teams perceptions of the game minus the offside rule and then I shall go to FIFA and demand that it be removed because its discriminatory against people who dont believe in the offside rule.

Then Im going to quit and play hockey.

If you are genuinely open and would be accepting should your child choose faith at some point in his life then there should be no issue with him being exposed to something like the Beaver's promise. There is far more brainwashing in schools imo.
Besides, do you really think its so harmful for children learning all sides of the argument? I tell mine that some people believe there is a god and some don't but its up to them to decide what you want to believe. But they shouldn't make that choice in ignorance: I am glad they get a Christian education, whether or not they take it all with a pinch of salt which is highly likely, I know I did. It teaches morality, to treat others with respect and to be grateful for what you have amongst other things. The God bit aside, it can't be a bad thing.
I suspect your DS wouldn't even see it as a lie - he would most likely say the words and then promptly forget. He would only see it as a lie if you enforce on him that "there is no god" and he genuinely believes that's fact - which is hardly allowing him to develop his own beliefs...

I don't think the OP has any issue with his DC being exposed to the promise, or any other aspect of religion - 'I completely encourage him to be exposed to religion' - the issue is being compelled to actually say the words, or being made to pretend to pray in school assembly. Personally I don't think its worth getting bent out of shape about, but I think the scouts and schools might do well to consider whether they are correct to enforce such things (many schools are happy to let children just sit quietly - why not all?).

GrimmaTheNome I don't think the OP has any issue with his DC being exposed to the promise, or any other aspect of religion - 'I completely encourage him to be exposed to religion' - the issue is being compelled to actually say the words, or being made to pretend to pray in school assembly. Personally I don't think its worth getting bent out of shape about, but I think the scouts and schools might do well to consider whether they are correct to enforce such things (many schools are happy to let children just sit quietly - why not all?).

Thanks for your post, I think you have nicely encapsulated my thoughts. I know a lot of people are saying that "no-one is making you send him to beavers" and they are correct, but it would be nice if he could go.

There are a lot of people miss-quoting me on this thread though, for example:

Ipomegranate "I agree Florist, the first sentence of the OP spoke volumes, their children are being brought up atheists, just as indoctrinated as those Christians he so looks down on."

When I actually said "We are a family of atheists and we are bringing up our children to [be (typo)] world aware and tolerant individuals who are inclusive of all members of society. This includes educating them about the beauty of human diversity and an understanding of different beliefs within our culture."

I want to expose my kids to lots of different religions, including being agnostic, plus the option to be atheist. This will hopefully allow them to be well rounded and empower them make the decision when they are old enough to understand things. Do I look down on Christians (or any other faith)? No, I respect them for the fact that they are passionate about something and at times I envy them for finding a belief that works for them. I just can't personally make that leap of faith. You seem to be threatened by the idea that others don't have the same view as you, I am not sure why though.

If I sometimes seem a little OTT, then it may be because I find it hard to strike the right level to give real balance. After all, I am just trying to do is do the best for my kids. I am sure that if a Sikh family had to send their child to a Christian school, they would probably put extra emphasis on the extra curricular religious activities (who could blame them), and it is no different for me. When the kids are at home, we talk about science and how we can learn about our world, but we also discuss how other people believe in their own religion (e.g. we talk about what their school nativity play means in the context of all the different religions). However, I don't say that others are "wrong", just that they have different opinions.

florist - Do I actually have a DS or am I just trying to troll? I have far more important things to do then wind up mumsnetters. I was actually hoping for some advice about what best to do for my son (thanks to everyone who have helped). It is disappointing that you don't see that I am trying to do the best as a parent. I am not sure why you need to post sarcastic comments about my intellect to make your point, is having a sensible discussion and exchange of thoughts not a better way of doing things, or do you also feel threatened. I am not trying to convert you to being atheist, I merely tried to explain my personal understanding of the world around me to put some context against why I was asking the question.

No I don't feel threatened at all, why would I when my personal beliefs re the existence of God are similar to your own? It was a long hard road to break the ties from evangelical parents, so I cringe when I see evangelism and I see evangelism coming forth loud and strong from your post. I guess it touched a nerve as I can remember how difficult my parents made life for me at times with THEIR strong beliefs. Like you, they use to claim it was important that we as their children, made up our own minds about Christianity but have really struggled with my oldest brother & me rejecting their religion. It's only in more recent years they seem more respectful of my choices. I wonder if you will be happy about it as you say when one of your DC decides to follow a religion?

My son joined Joeys age 6 (Aussie equiv of beavers). At that point he said he believed in God. He's 11 now and says he doesn't know. My daughter was enrolled at Brownies just last night - her promise was 'to love my God' which makes sense to me, and her. I would have thought the scouting movement would offer something similar in wording.

Do you actually have a DC who wants to tie knots in scouts or beavers or are you just engaging in an anti religious rant? If the latter then you are far from convincing
Florist was correct writing that - you're far from convincing in the latter option of ranting

Always seems to me on these threads that atheists have to bend over backwards to prove they aren't 'indoctrinating' their kids to a higher level than anyone ever expects of a religious parent. Fortunately most are scrupulous in trying to teach their DC to think for themselves and provide a wide range of information.

Ipomegranate It was a long hard road to break the ties from evangelical parents, so I cringe when I see evangelism and I see evangelism coming forth loud and strong from your post. I guess it touched a nerve as I can remember how difficult my parents made life for me at times with THEIR strong beliefs.

Thank you for what is actually a very useful comment. As I have said in earlier posts, I do personally struggle to strike the right balance and find it hard to not to push my personal values upon my kids. This is caused by my perception that the State is pushing values differing to mine upon my DS, which I personally feel is unacceptable (it would be illegal for a State school to do this in France or the USA).

I suppose the difference between my sons situation and yours as a child, is that your were "pulling" away from your parents as you reached an age where you could make you own choice (this is stressful for them I am sure, they were probably scared for your future if they were that religious). Whereas my son is being "pulled" away from me (due to actions of the State) at an age when he is very impressionable. If the State education system were secular, then this would never happen (to anyone in society whatever their religion (or otherwise)). When my DS is old enough to choose, I am hopeful that I will accept this, because I will see it as his choice and not because of "brainwashing" at an impressionable age. I feel this is an important distinction.

P.S I used the words "pulling away" and "pulled away" to illustrate the origins of the moving force, not to describe how I feel. I don't feel that he is actually being pulled away from me by his school.

P.P.S I also use the term "brainwashing" in a lazy way (I couldn't think of another less imotive word). I do not mean to cause offence by using this term.

I haven't read all of the posts but being a Beaver Leader myself I can tell you that there isn't a Scout Law for Beavers. They just have to say the promise. In my experience, Beavers don't actually know what the words that they are saying really mean, it's a thing that they say when invested and the on St. George's Parade (if your district does this).

When I invest a Beaver they just repeat the promise after me one line at a time, they never actually piece it all together until they are Cubs which they do at 8 so imo your son has two years to decide if he is willing to make the promise (that is slightly more extended than the Beavers one) or not.

If you are not happy for him to make the promise then it is your choice, but I think you will find that most Scout groups have to be attached to a Church (or other place of worship) to be able to run (there are very few exceptions)

OP - I have to say that I respect you a lot for taking the time to come back to the thread, spending time adding information and 'speaking' to other posters.

There are many OPs who start a thread, it all turns into a huge debate/bunfight and the OP disappears never to return!

Your answers are measured and I do think you are trying your utmost to do the best for your DC.

As I said in my first comment, I'm a Christian, so myself and DH don't raise our DC in the same way you do, but at the end of the day we're all just trying to do what we think is best for them.

Hope you can come to a conclusion about Scouts or other activity which he can enjoy.

Couldn't you just use this to educate your child further.... some people believe, others don't, but scouts historically do so if you wish to join you may just have to go along with it! I am athiest but will still join in prayer if at a wedding for example to show respect... good luck, and good post! :)

Thanks TheLastChocolate.

Firefly I think it's the opposite of showing respect if you say a prayer without meaning it/believing it, surely the rituals bear some significance, if you just mouth along you contribute to making them into empty rituals.

WidowWadman - rationally, I agree with you. However, when one is in such circumstances IRL, sitting/standing silent instead of joining in would make it an 'issue', about oneself - totally inappropriate to a wedding (or a funeral - at my mother's recently, amid my family who are all Christians of one type or another - it felt more respectful to say the Lord's prayer along with everyone else rather than standing mute. Respectful of their feelings, anyway, which are a Real Thing.)

I attend, but don't pretend, and haven't in over a decade, and never been pulled up about it - most people I know would close their eyes or look down rather than around whilst saying the lord's prayer, so would not really notice anyway.

I will stand up and sit down at the appropriate points in a service but wouldn't kneel nor attend communion, nor say prayers or the credo.

I have recently been at a funeral, and stood silent and respectful while other people said the Lord's prayer. I would actually have found it disrespectful to say a prayer when I don't believe.

It depends on the situation. If I was in the midst of strangers, say something like a school carol service, I stay quiet for any prayer (though carols have to be belted out full throttle ). Its quite revealing in such situations to see how many people are just sitting, head unbowed.

Standing next to my brother - he'd have noticed my silence, it would have seemed like I was making some point about me, which would have been totally out of place. I'm more concerned to respect people's feelings than any notion of respect for the religion itself - that's the distinction I was trying to make, and that's why it depends on the situation. The rituals are devoid of meaning for me, but not for other people.

Anyway, getting back to firefly's point - that sounds a goodapproach to me.

If the organisation which requiring a child to say something would think its disrespectful for them to say it if they don't believe it, then the onus is on them to either (a) make it clear such children aren't welcome (which is not the intent of the Scouts nowadays) or (b) provide a suitable alternative.

The fact they don't do either implies they wouldn't find it disrespectful.

I sought out sports clubs as they didn't have any types of faith aligned to them. Swimming, athletics, triathlon, cycling, karate, judo, skating, football, netball, running, youth club (thought not sports, council run) all have welcoming club ways and the children interact in a wonderful way. The children learn to support and encourage each other and gain a wealth of others attributes - no faith is ever mentioned and no prayers to say.

Thank you for responding Technodad, I see what you are saying. I guess I think at age 6 (and older) children tend to go with what their parents tell them so to some extent it's impossible to avoid brainwashing or indoctrinating your own DC. I say that my DS believed in God at age 5/6 but really his brain wasn't mature enough to analyze concepts of God and afterlife etc. No child of that age can, they're pretty huge subjects for most adults to think about. Even now at age 11 I know DS hasn't made his mind up which is fine by me, I've always told both DC that I don't believe but they need to make their own minds up and I will respect their beliefs (just as I respect my parents'). I know from the conversations over the years that they found it quite puzzling that some people believe and some don't, children of that age are very concrete thinkers - there is a god or there isn't and grey areas just confuse them. I think DS was 8/9 when he started saying 'some people believe in god and some people don't.'

As they've got older we've had more interesting conversations around it. If I were you I would let your DS join Beavers, I think it does no harm and quite a lot of gotowel have exposure to people who have differing beliefs to your own family at an early age. I was happy for my children to attend Sunday school for a year when they were 7 & 5 (they no longer wanted to go so stopped) without worrying that they were being indoctrinated as I reasoned that they knew I didn't believe, so even if it was taught to them as fact then they knew not everyone agrees so that would save them from being forced into anything as whatever they were told at SS was not being reinforced at home. For the same reason I allowed the to have CRE at school in Oz (though was a bit annoyed that they don't teach/talk about all religions in Aussie primaries).

I hope this makes sense as I'm not sure I'm articulating myself very well. It sounds like you're doing a good job parenting, tolerance is a difficult thing to teach as everyone will find something intolerable! I can't tolerate evangelism or intolerance, so therefore I'm intolerant!

Gotowel should read 'good to have exposure' - damn iPad!

Gotowel? That's not even a word - WTF?