Scout Association - Promise - Athiests

[Technodad]

Hi all,

A bit of background: We are a family of atheists and we are bringing up our children to world aware and tolerant individuals who are inclusive of all members of society. This includes educating them about the beauty of human diversity and an understanding of different beliefs within our culture. If during this process one of my children finds faith, then we are open and flexible to this, as long as this is a choice of the child and not as a result of faith being pushed upon them by others.

The problem: As one of the kids is now 6 years old, we thought we would look into signing him up for Beaver Scouts. I went when I was a kid and it was fun. A slot has now come up in the local group, but when they phoned to ask if we wanted to join, we were asked if he would be willing to make the scout oath, which requires him to say the words "To do my duty to God and to the Queen". Ignoring the Queen for this discussion, since it is an indisputable proven fact that she is our Head of State, I have a bit of an issue with the ?God? bit. My problem is not because I have a issue with religion, but because it leave us atheists in a bit of a quandary ? we don?t like to be hypocrites.

I did some research online, and it seems that if you give evidence at court, or join the military, you can drop the ?god bit? from your oath if you are a non-believer. This means that even us heathens can be honest when we make these pledges, to do otherwise would be immoral. However, apparently the Scout Association refuses to follow suit and insists on every member being ?of faith? (it doesn?t matter what faith, as long as it has a god it seems).

So I have two options:

1. Give him the choice of joining and telling a lie (he is a very clever 6 year old and this is how he will see it).
2. Not let him go to save putting him in a difficult position.

The irony is that the Beaver group is happy for him to join, as long as he says the words, but they equally want him to follow the Scouting Laws which include: ?A Scout is to be trusted?, ?A Scout has courage in all difficulties?, ?A Scout has self-respect and respect for others?. The irony is, he will break these 3 of the 7 Laws in the process of joining just by saying these words!

I am fed up with society?s approach to atheism and its desires to discriminate against those who don?t believe. My son goes to a local C of E school and is made to pray in assembly ? i.e. he must put his hands together when everyone else does (we live in a rural community and there are not many schools to choose from ? ultimately your kids are sent to the school in catchment that has spaces). I completely encourage him to be exposed to religion, so I don?t want him to be taken out of assembly during group worship, but why can he not just sit there quietly and respectfully. We have asked him if he wants to be excused from religious assembly so that he doesn?t have to pray and he says that he doesn?t want to look different from the other children, which I can completely understand. Why is it that society is hell bent on highlighting the differences between one another, rather than celebrating the similarities?

So?.. Am I Being Unreasonable?

Technodad.

[/Rant]

What Fleurdebleurgh said is very interesting, will file that one away for the future!

Must admit when DS1 did the Scout oath, I suggested that he view the "God" part as respecting what's out there that he can't know about except that it's bigger than any of us. Sort of like the 12th step programme "Higher Power".
I am a Humanist, btw. More positive outllook than Atheists.

St. John Ambulance youth groups are good, too, for those without faith; even though everyone I know in SJA is deeply Christian; but their outlook is entirely secular in practice.

TBH, you do sound a bit pompous.

Thoughtful and reasoned, but pompous.

YABU. It's the Scouts not a State school or Social Services.

They can set whatever rules they like as far as religion is concerned.

For goodness sake, you are missing the point if your DS is going to a C of E school.

If you are so aethiest, then why on earth is he at a faith school?

Really, Beavers is the least of your worries when it comes to hypocrisy.

The God in the Promise can be your own God, whatever that may be.

Really.

My DS goes to Scouts and has been through Beavers and Cubs. We're not religious at all. We do go to church on Christmas eve because I like to see the tree, sing the carols, look at the nativity scene (it's a nice story!)

He's never been required to go to Church with any section, despite meetings being held in Church Halls. Largely because there are kids of many different faiths who attend and attending church wouldn't seem appropriate.

Having said that they all said their promise. It's the difference between following the spirit of the law and the letter of the law.

I hold very similar viewpoints to you. DD1 goes to Rainbows and I let the promise ('..my God' rather than just God) wash over me, as I felt it better not to make a big deal of it. However, I don't take her to monthly Church Parade, and we didn't participate in the cibtraversial shoeboxes to developing countries scheme last month.

*contraversial

Surely the OP has had her answer from a Scout leader within the first few posts. You don't have to say a promise involving God. The Scout Association has versions available that don't mention God.

That is surely the solution to this then, isn't it?

If you don't want to be a hypocrite then don't. Take your child out of a faith school and don't countenance sending him to a faith-based organisation.

My DD goes to St John's Ambulance Cadets for this very reason.
They promise to be the best person they can be in all situations and to consider others before themselves.
No religion mentioned.
Of course they are mainly about first aid but do all the usual badges the others do, just with a health angle on them all.

For goodness sake, you are missing the point if your DS is going to a C of E school.
If you are so aethiest, then why on earth is he at a faith school?

The OP explained that :
we live in a rural community and there are not many schools to choose from ? ultimately your kids are sent to the school in catchment that has spaces

[this would have happened to our DD if we'd not been able to pay]

Anyway - I think the OP is entirely NBU to be fed up with society's approach to atheism, especially in relation to schools. But as to Beavers - I think if my DD had wanted to go to Rainbows I'd have let her, with some sort of fudgey thoughts as already suggested. I do think its high time Scouts/Guides allowed this to drop though - the notion that faith, any sort of faith, is A Good Thing is actually quite problematic to rationalists (I think its a Bad Thing to have faith in the unproved and unprovable). The promise doesn't even work well for followers of any non-monotheistic religion (Buddhists aren't theists; Hindus are polytheists - 'God' doesn't really fit them)

I have the same beliefs as you and want to raise my kids in a similar way.

But I think you have to consider what's best for them. The Scouts are a fantastic organisation and they will miss out on a lot if you are just too worried about them making an oath to God. They do that already at school. My 5 yr old son comes home and wants to pray before eating because he did it at his pre-school and I think it's sweet. Being tolerant of all means also being tolerant of christianity and organised religion. I don't beleive for one minute it's going to influence his thoughts or his beliefs because I am confident that I have a much stronger influence over that and I encourage unity and an open armed approach to everyone and that includes following rituals of Christinas, Jews, Muslims...etc etc.

I think you're making a bit of a meal of it.

Ds1 (6) currently believes in Father Christmas, the Tooth Fairy, reincarnation, the Baby Jesus but not in God. He recently became a Beaver and promised to 'Love God.' We talked about it and he decided it is OK for him to say it because it is polite to the others and doesn't hurt anyone. He already knows about tact socially acceptable lying, so it wasn't a big deal for us.

I really like lljkk's explanation of 'respecting what's out there that he can't know about except that it's bigger than any of us' Will save that for ds2.

He's six. Let him be a beaver.

If you are so convinced that there is no God, then what are you worried about? Do you tell him that Santa is bringing his presents this year? If so, then there really is no difference.

i'm an atheist guide guider, i promise to love 'my god'... i'm not sure what my god is, it's certainly not a superhuman being that lives in a place called heaven... 'my god' might be love, or mother nature, or something... einstein's 'god' was some kind of naural order or laws of physics... it doens't bother me to say it as it means nothing to me and i've got so much other good through guiding through my life.

Try the Woodcraft Folk - much the same outdoorsy stuff as scouts, but without the queen, uniform, or god :)

My parents had the same dilemma and decided I should probably just parrot the words, which I did, and then avoided any church activities in the brownies, it was fine. But as purpleroses says, woodcraft folk is another option!

Why do people who claim they don't believe in God get so upset at the mention of the word? Do people feel threatened or something?

Nobody gets this upset about The Tooth Fairy

Nobody makes your children promise to do their duty to the tooth fairy, or puts pressure on them to go to church to worship her No people like having to make promisses that they don't believe in, atheists feel much the same as Christians would if asked to say they promise to do their duty to Khrishna and all the other gods of Hinduism.

If you don't believe in it, then it's just words.

Sorry, I think YABU. If you hadn't worked out by now that Beavers and Scouts are a theist organisation, then at least you know now! FWIW, I think there's absolutely no harm in enrolling your son at this level. You could vet the group to make sure that an overtly religious agenda isn't being pushed. But this is their group and Scouting has been around for a long time now! Either stop overthinking the issue (I strongly doubt he'll either be indoctrinated, or feel 'bad' because he's mouthing words he doesn't believe in) or send him to the Woodies. (If you can find a young Woodcraft Folk group close enough. Sadly, they tend to be urban, and groups for younger children aren't as common as the ones for older.)

Technodad here - sorry for posting and running away, it has been a busy day. Oh my god there are a lot of replies (oh, hold on, I can't say "Oh my god" - I don't have one )

Thanks for all the input. There is a lot to take in, but I have a few counter-comments to clarify a few points from others.

There are a lot of people who say that it is a private club and they can do what they like. I couldn't agree more, and if it was a single faith club then I wouldn't be considering sending DS to join. It is the fact that it is a multi-faith organisation (which is ideal for DS to learn about others in the community, teamwork, tolerance, sport, hobbies, fun!), but won't accept one section of the community just because they don't have a god, that I find a somewhat alien concept. (even the BNP are legally obliged to have a non-discrimitory membership policy - not that I want him to join the BNP )

I pride myself on being true to myself as an atheist and if I promise something, then I mean it. For this reason, I have reluctantly turned down the chance of being a god parent to a number of friends kids. I just feel strongly about it.

    @Fleurdebleurgh: <span class="italic">There are variations on the Scout Promise and Law to suit other religions that exclude the word 'God' available from HQ if your pack requests them.</span>

This is very interesting, is this pack available online, or by parents upon request? It would be useful to discuss this with the pack leader.

     @TheLastChocolate: ^"Why is it that society is hell bent on highlighting the differences between one another, rather than celebrating the similarities?"

This is what you are doing too. Wanting to take your child out of a school assembly in a CofE school because you don't want him to pray. Has he said that he is uncomfortable with being part of group prayer or other religious practices? It isn't about you, rather it is about him.^

You may have a point, but we have really tried to bring him up with a balanced view on religion. We have told him our views and talked about the views of others. He came home from school crying on his first day because he didn't want to pray because he didn't believe. He was only 4! We have told him to sit and think nice thoughts about his family and friends while others are praying, which he seems happy with.

I have no problem with him having religion, I just want that to come from him having all the options. If he becomes best mates with a Muslim at school and actively seeks to learn from his friend about that religion, then great. If he has to go to a particular faith school where they mandate that he follows a certain religion then I am less delighted!

      @squeakytoy: ^I think some people do way too much overthinking on things that really dont matter in the grand scheme of things.

Let him join the bloody scouts if that is what he wants to do. If you dont believe in God, then its no different to letting your kid believe in Father Christmas for a few years either... it is a meaningless 3 letter word.^

You may be right, I don't know why I feel so strongly about it, I just do.

     @hackmum: <span class="italic">but actually if you're an atheist saying "I promise to do my duty to God" is as meaningful as saying "I promise to do my duty to the Giant Purple Teapot."</span>

I love it - good call!

      @Scholes34: <span class="italic">If your athiest beliefs are important, you are being unreasonable to expect other groups to bend their rules to suit you.</span>

Fair point, I can respect that (by the way atheists don't have "beliefs" we just work on facts, but I will let that slide ) - runs away, puts hard hat on and hides .

Anyway - I decided to ask my son this evening. I sat him down and explained what Beavers is, and how fun it can be, then told him that he would have to say the promise, and he immediately said that he didn't want to go. We went on to explain that it was OK to tell this little white lie if he wanted to go and was happy to respect the views of others. After a bit of thinking, he decided that he would like to go, as long as it was OK to say the promise even if he didn't mean all of it. We said that him saying "to love god" was the same as saying "loving all my friends, family and my environment", and he was cool with that.

He isn't due to start until mid spring, so in the interim I will make sure he is definitely happy, and investigate the information @Fleurdebleurgh discussed (which would be ideal).

Thanks all for your thoughts.

Technodad

The current list of alternative promises are available on the scout website, and there is not one for athiests, they are specifically included as they claim to be a theist organisation (despite having a form for Buddhists)

They have a diversity plan where they claim to want a fully representative membership, but again exclude certain groups so there plan is just garbage so I do think the scouts are BVU with their policies (I'm also very sure every local group would welcome anyone so it's not that relevant)

Anyway, in reading your last post I've decided you're being VU and just trying to make an evangelical point with your child, you are not dealing in facts, atheism is a faith too and rather than coming to a sensible accomodation with the organisation about if he can join you're complaining about the God reference before you'd even investigated it, the information is all there on the scouts website.

I had exactly this problem when my ds joined Cubs, and had a thread very simelar to this!

But I don't have time to reply properly now, I'll be back later!

"atheism is a faith too" Nooooooooo! Not that one again!

My lack of belief in fairies at the bottom of the garden is NOT a faith.