TO WONDER WHY WOMEN DONT MIND BEING 2ND CLASS CITIZENS

[MrsClown]

I am a feminist. I am 52 years old with 4 grown up children. I shave my legs, paint my nails and wear make up. I am heterosexual and married. I just wondered, why do people assume that I have hairy legs and am a lesbian! Yes, some feminists are lesbians but we are a mixed bunch. Also, can anyone tell me why most women do not mind the fact that they cant walk around where they want to at night, and if they do and something happens they get part of the blame. Why dont women mind that the list of BBC Sports Personality is all male. Why dont women mind that other women are being bought and sold for sex and some are trafficked. If women do mind, why do they not at least attempt to do something about it. Why do most women ridicule me when I say I am a feminist, after all I am in good company (Annie Lennox, Helena Kennedy, Josie Long, Diane Abbott etc). Why do most women think it is ok for men of all ages (including elderly men) have the right to leer at a woman's body (who is probably young enough to be their grand daughter) every day in a 'newspaper'. I could go on. Is there no end to what women will put up with.

I am not being callous with my questions. I have been a feminist for about 40 years and things dont seem to be that much better for women, infact the objectification is much worse. I wondered if anyone would answer me to satisfy my curiosity. I have been ridiculed by so many women during discussions. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but it is usually the non fem who gets annoyed and starts getting upset. Infact, on many occasions men have agreed with me! I cant understand why a mother would not want her daughter to have the same rights as her son.

Sorry to go on but I hope someone will satisfy my curiosity.

It does. What part of the word 'feminism' doesn't appear to be all about women? If we used the word 'equalitist', it would do what it says on the tin.

I believe men and women are equal. Sometimes men are treated with inferiority too, that is completely unacceptable.

The word equalist doesn't do what it says on the tin, if you think that people are going to know you are referring to the equality of men and women. It could mean the equality of anything, because it isn't a widely used word.

I'm an equalist. I believe that battenburg cake and syrup sponge are equally nice.

I think the OP was impassioned but came across as a bit shouty initially, I think there are 2nd class citizens but first world women in the early 21st century are not where the real problems lie. We have a lot of choice and many opportunities.

Feminism is a broad church, but sadly the stereotype seems to confer "opinionated, inflexible and shouty" and/or "hairy legged lesbian" and "man hater" so I think many women are put off calling themselves feminists.

I thinkthe big fights still to win in the UK are equal pay for equal work, and a recognision of the economic value of childbearing and minding.

Fwiw I find the "MN Feminists" are very quick to call all other women "wrong" if they don't adhere to their pretty hardline views, and they stand out on MN in terms of rudeness and hostility, so I find debating stuff with them is impossible and I just avoid them as much as possible, so it is good to read this debate from a far wider group of women on AIBU.

aswellasyou It doesn't. The word 'feminism' means promoting women's rights - from a very low standpoint - to reach equality.
If you think that we're not there yet, in certain areas, then the word feminism fits.

If you think that, (as groups not individuals), men and women are treated the same, then the term equalist fits. Except there'd be no need for a term at all because everyone would have parity and there'd be nothing to fight for.

You could be an equalist in race issues, or disabled rights too, or class issues but those arguments apply there too, imo. (For now though I'm using equalist in gender terms)

I've got 15 lesbians on Facebook - 13 of them are feminists, one is like me, (50/50) and the other one couldn't give a toss as she's always off her head. - that's scientific enough for me.

I think there are varying degrees OP.

Some women are treated differently. Some of those women don't mind. Some do. Some do something about it. Some don't. Some would like to but don't know what/how to. They may be isolated; socially/culturally/economically.

I teach adults. When I interview some women it is sometimes their husband who speaks for them. I ask the husband to, politely, wait outside. Some do. Some object. One man wouldn't 'let' his wife enroll because she needed to look after the children. This, despite the fact that the husband was at home all day. Some of these women feel this is ok. Some don't.

There are varying degrees of how/why women are treated differently. They are varying degrees of reaction to this.

I don't know what to do about it on a global scale but I chip away on a local level.

OK, I'll be a femascinist. If you think feminism is all about only fighting for women's rights and that's all you care about then I'm happy to call you a feminist. If you believe you should be treated equally with men and vice versa, then the word doesn't cover both bases. Having said that, a lot of women I know who describe themselves as feminists, actually do only care about getting one over on men like my Mum does, so they are 'femin'ists. Either way, I'm not a feminist.

Hahahahahaha.

Perception of rudeness and hostility really do depend on where one sits on a spectrum, don't they?

I mind. I am not a second class citizen. I stand my round in the pub, do the DIY and gardening and answer back when silly little boys at work come out with their rubbish about what women can't do. Also stood up to a mugger and took back the concern ticket he stole from me. OK, we can't run around asking everyone to admire the length of our penises (oh dear, what a deprivation that is). We can't get anyone directly pregnant but lesbian couples can go for assisted conception. The second class citizen stuff is in the mind, as with ageism etc.

"Feminism is a broad church, but sadly the stereotype seems to confer "opinionated, inflexible and shouty" and/or "hairy legged "

Well what are feminists supposed to do about that? Stop shouting? Shave their legs? Be 'flexible'? Hold no opinions? Oh hang on...... once you do all that you might as well not bother with feminism. Job done

Sinical, I don't think that women are always treated as being equal to men. But I also think that men aren't always treated as being equal to women. That's my point. You can't just fight for one side of the division. The same applies to race, religion, etc. (not so much disability) in that sometimes you may be discrimated against because of what you are, and other times you may be 'positively' discriminated against. I don't agree with either method, I believe everyone is equal.

I think there may be a problem in the UK, as regards women getting senior posts in large companies, due to the private school system which grooms men in assuredness and confidence to rise to the top and grooms girls for, well I'm not sure what. But not to become the top of a profession from what I see.

Hopefully women are targetting better paid jobs and less in the 'caring' professions which are seriously underpaid. Certainly there are more women doctors and lawyers. I listened to a careers expert on woman's Hour say that girls should follow what they are interested in but surely this is not advisable as most 16/17year olds are interested in beauty, fashion, babies and good-looking blokes. I made sure my daughters went for jobs equally filled by men and so both are well paid now (I worked in the NHS when pay was v low). My niece, after her degree, works in the retail fashion industry and earns much less than her cousins in other fields.

Then there is also the prob of women having babies -- bound to interfere with career progression. Though things are changing.

Unsafe streets applies to men too. You see very few coloured men in football crowds. It's probably just not worth them taking the risk of rowdy or drunk supporters after a match (or anywhere else there are crowds of heavy drinkers).

As for women being trafficked for sex - horrible goings on but you need to change the country theyare coming from as much as trying to stop the demand. I've seen the young girls in Bangkok apparently sometimes their parents send them to go to work in the city so they can send the money home. Contraception would be the first priority so that the parents don't have more children than they can feed but somehow this seems to be beyond the capabilities of the WHO etc. So it will go on.

Just a few points.

But who have perpetrated the myth of feminists being hairy legged shouty man haters?

It patently isn't true that feminists only care about women's rights. Feminism is about women's rights, but people who are feminists also generally have involvement in other political movements as well.

In much the same way that if you are a stamp collector, that doesn't suggest that you can't also have an interest in playing cricket.

rycooler You collect Facebook lesbians?

FWIW of all the many lesbians I've ever met I'd say about 10% are separatist feminists, 20% are feminists in the sense of wanting to beat men at their own game career-wise, 60% care about women's issues but are mostly just getting on with their lives and the remaining 10% don't care because (as rycooler put it) they're off their heads most of the time.

And, thinking about it, that's probably about the same distribution as heterosexual women

Oops, don't know whay I've striked out that line, an accident.

Given that there must be some overlap between feminism and equalism, do you have any info about equalist activism or blogs that I can get stuck into, aswellasyou?

im an equalist

of money

they call me the equalizer

*nb 278% APR for 15 years total settlement figure on request

Well what are feminists supposed to do about that? Stop shouting? Shave their legs? Be 'flexible'? Hold no opinions? Oh hang on...... once you do all that you might as well not bother with feminism. Job done

You are kinda proving the point here..... stereotypes emerge for a reason.

Aye, I don't have any links and I have no interest whatsoever in blogs. I imagine there won't be many sites devoted to all types of equality though. That doesn't mean you can't fight for people's rights on seperate campaigns, including women's rights.

hardly proving your point wmw

aswellasyou well of course. You can campaign for disability rights today, women's rights tomorrow, and gay rights on Sunday. Just another word for women's rights is feminism. So not liking the word is one thing but not liking the concept is a bit weird, imo.

I am happy to call myself a feminist and know that there are still some issues but overall things are a lot better for women in society than they were 40 years ago.

However some of the issues raised by the OP are not solely an issue for females. Men are more likely to be attacked at night than women and will have to deal with the issue of they should have been able to defend themselves, etc.

Women leer at men - look at some of the adverts on tv using the sexualisation of men in order to appeal to women. You don't need to be a feminist to be horrified of human trafficking, many men, including my partner is equally horrified.

I am for equality but for both males and females. I worry about the "dumbing down" and over sexualisation that is used in the media, where it appears that in order to be sucessful you need to be young, pretty and act dumb. This used to be solely a female thing but increasingly males are catching up with this.

I am incredibly grateful to the women trailblazers who made it possible to have the freedoms I have but I realise that the battle is not over and we all need to fight for equality of both genders.

Wow, I can't believe everybody is jumping down the OP's throat like this!

I think maybe women think we've achieved equality and so nothing else needs to be done.

Things have to reach a stage where the status quo is more uncomfortable than change. Obviously the status quo is comfortable so this is probably as good as it gets.

I just make sure things are equal in my own life and just let others get on with it. Like my colleague who works full time and her OH is at home all day. She does all the housework and comes home and cooks after a day at work. They have no kids. There's no way a man would accept that situation in reverse. She complains (to us) yet still goes home and does all the work.

I read the walking around at night thing as OP was bringing up the point that you're likely to get part of the blame if something happened to you.

The' ban page thre'e thing never went anywhere, yet a few men complain about the 'page seven fella' and it gets removed immediately. Nobody bats an eyelid.