TO WONDER WHY WOMEN DONT MIND BEING 2ND CLASS CITIZENS

[MrsClown]

I am a feminist. I am 52 years old with 4 grown up children. I shave my legs, paint my nails and wear make up. I am heterosexual and married. I just wondered, why do people assume that I have hairy legs and am a lesbian! Yes, some feminists are lesbians but we are a mixed bunch. Also, can anyone tell me why most women do not mind the fact that they cant walk around where they want to at night, and if they do and something happens they get part of the blame. Why dont women mind that the list of BBC Sports Personality is all male. Why dont women mind that other women are being bought and sold for sex and some are trafficked. If women do mind, why do they not at least attempt to do something about it. Why do most women ridicule me when I say I am a feminist, after all I am in good company (Annie Lennox, Helena Kennedy, Josie Long, Diane Abbott etc). Why do most women think it is ok for men of all ages (including elderly men) have the right to leer at a woman's body (who is probably young enough to be their grand daughter) every day in a 'newspaper'. I could go on. Is there no end to what women will put up with.

I am not being callous with my questions. I have been a feminist for about 40 years and things dont seem to be that much better for women, infact the objectification is much worse. I wondered if anyone would answer me to satisfy my curiosity. I have been ridiculed by so many women during discussions. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but it is usually the non fem who gets annoyed and starts getting upset. Infact, on many occasions men have agreed with me! I cant understand why a mother would not want her daughter to have the same rights as her son.

Sorry to go on but I hope someone will satisfy my curiosity.

Maybe I am collecting them - it's a lot more interesting than collecting stamps

hardly proving your point wmw

I did say "kinda" - proving point Lite if you like :)

My bigger point though is that stereotypes don't come out of nowhere, and the Feminist stereotype is such that many women don't want to be labelled as feminists, and termsl ike equalist are becoming popular.

Everybody is all up in arms and indignant that the OP said we're second class citizens.

How would those people define second class citizens, then? If gay or ethnic minority people were discriminated in the workplace (to cite one example) to the extent women are, I think most would agree they were being treated as second class citizens. I don't get the outrage at that statement.

whatmeworry - so you are blaming feminists for their own bad press because they have opinions and aren't afraid to voice them? How odd. What should they do?

"the Feminist stereotype is such that many women don't want to be labelled as feminists" all that proves is that feminism has a lot more work to do.

I would like to know in OP's opinion we are being treated as second class citizens? I know that when I go into work, my opinion counts and I am taken seriously by both more senior males and females.

The one time that I was faced with how lucky I am to be in this country was when I was training some people from India (about 5 years ago so things may have changed) and the males would clarify things I had said with male members of my team even though I was the most senior person there!

Sinical, it's not that I don't like the concept of feminism, I just don't like the fact that the term implies that you only care about women and couldn't care less about men. If there were campaigns for men's rights I think there would be many people up in arms about it. Therefore, gender equality is what should be (and often is) being campaigned for in my opinion.

But there are much bigger fish to fry. There's a lot more discrimination of immigrants, for example, than there is of women in my experience. I can't say I've ever encountered discrimination personally as a woman, so it really can't be that bad. Thanks to those who fought when there really was discrimination of women.

It's not the 'second class citizens' bit that most posters are objecting to. It's the 'women don't mind' and then later 'women on here clearly have no interest in discussing women's issues'.

Not how to start a discussion, being condescending, insulting your audience and generally taking a superior attitude rather than trying to rally the troops in a constructive way. See the 'frothers' thread for a shining example of how to motivate and organise. OP has apologised for her tone but judging by all the irate posters on here, she hasn't done Feminism on MN much of a favour in starting the thread.

Aswellasyou, by your logic, shouldn't you be arguing for equality between immigrants and native born people, rather than being concerned solely with discrimination against immigrants? Or are you suggesting (by your logic) that immigrants are better than everybody else and that only their rights matter?

Or do you only apply that logic to discrimination against women?

I get that aswellasyou just I think equalist is a bit wishy washy as a term because it doesn't tell you much really. Of course everybody should be equal, but it doesn't describe which groups you think aren't. Or even if you think in terms of groups or not. It's about focus I suppose.

Also just saying you're a feminist isn't all that either, actions speak louder than words. I could say I'm a vegetarian but if I kept scoffing bacon sandwiches you could rightly conclude I either don't know what the term means or am simply blowing hot air.

Agree with everything that trills said..
Its subtly everywhere now that my eyes have been opened so to speak

From men and women looking in disbelief when they find out what I do for a job (considered something quite macho and intelligent and I'm small and blond and therefore obviously too thick to do it ..who knows..but the reaction is there everytime)

To my entitled abusive ex who thought my sole purpose was to wait on him and that cooking cleaning etc were beneath him..

To peoples misconceptions when they realise I'm a single parent to then que even more disbelief when they find out the job I actually do...

I would have laughed at the idea of feminism when I was younger as it just didn't apply to me.... but it really does.

I think you're being a bit shoot-the-messenger HugosGoatee, OP did admit she came across wrong, but the substance of her post clearly has resonance.

Milly, I don't think I understand your post. I am arguing for equality between immigrants and native born people. But immigrants don't tend to discriminate against natives which is why I only mentioned one side of the argument.

Tha fact that you're picking apart my posts and attempting somehow to imply that I don't truly believe in equality is very strange.

Sinical, I accepted the term wasn't correct when you're simply talking about gender inequality and that femascinist is better, but I still firmly believe in campaigning for both women's and men's rights simultaneously, as well as everyone else's of course.

Aswellasyou, I'm not implying that you don't believe in equality.

You believe that immigrants receive greater discrimination than non-immigrants. You want the two groups to be equal, but because of the greater discrimination against immigrants, you phrased it in terms of that, rather than in terms of equality. I do not have an issue with that whatsoever. I think you are right to phrase it in that way.

And that is what feminists do when it comes to women. Feminists believe that women experience greater discrimination that a man from an equivalent social group would do. So we phrase it in terms of discrimination against women. That doesn't mean we don't want equality, that we think women are better, or that we don't realise that other forms of discrimination exist or that men aren't sometimes victimised for being men. Our meaning is exactly the same as yours is about immigrants, but you seem to have a very hostile reaction to that meaning, even though it is the same as yours.

josiez "as most 16/17year olds are interested in beauty, fashion, babies and good-looking blokes"

well that must be the lest "feminist" comment I've seen on this thread

I was a barrister. Many of my female peers were lawyers, drs, other professionals. Very few of us still are. Not because we feel we have been discriminated against but because when it came to the crunch we preferred to SAH with our DC's - no big conspiracy. I worked hard, passed my exams, was the best of the best and still feel fairly confident that I could go back to being pretty good. If I wanted to. Which I don't.

I know it irritates people but I just can't buy into the big "women are second class citizens" bullshit. I have never been a second class citizen, if a man tried to treat me as such he'd be given extrodinarily short shrift.

how is see the equalist/feminist argument is this: i want racial equality. most people who are discriminated against in the UK are black or Asian. a small number are white.

the law means no one can be discriminated on the grounds of race without redress.

practically i want anti racist efforts to focus on the discrimination against black & Asian people as they experience more discrimination because i believe this is the best way to get to a point where no one is discriminated against.

same for equality between men and women.

also - where are men discriminated against?

i like taht BTM

that too, as well as tart

Milly, I don't believe that women do receive a huge amount more discrimination than men do, perhaps that's why I differ from you in thinking the term feminism is misplaced. If you're fighting on a small scale (eg. in your own office), I would happily fight more for one side if the discrimation is skewed dramatically one way. But as a concept, it would be wrong in my opinion, to only fight for one side when both sides need to be fought in different scenarios. In the case of immigrants, there is a huge amount of discrimination towards them, but hardly any from them.

P.S. I don't appreciate your use of the word hostile, when there has been no hostility from me.

well that's the crux then, aswellasyou if you don't think women as a group are discriminated against then you're not a feminist. Which is grand (obviously !) even if I disagree.

can I just say that actually there is a lot of dsicrimination between different groups of immigrants, but that we needn't cloud the issue here with inconvenient truths.

Men are discriminated against as parents, in female dominated offices, working in nurseries, as midwives and nurses, by being expected to perform 'male' roles such as being capable of doing DIY, etc. Basically, men can be demonised for doing anything caring or are seen as inadequate by some if they can't perform 'masculine' tasks.

For example, I am a single parent who sleeps in the same bed as my daughter. Noone has ever batted an eyelid at this. If I were a man, I would have probably been reported for child abuse by now!

I do appreciate that women have been treated badly in the past, but there really isn't as much of a problem now. We get paid the same mostly, we're 'allowed' to do whatever job we like on the whole, we don't get sidelined in conversation for being women and we aren't expected to perform sexually if we don't want to. I have never felt opressed in my life.

Sinical, I didn't say women aren't discriminated against, just that it's not the case that we're discriminated against vastly more than men are, just in different situations.

I'm happy to agree to disagree though.