TO WONDER WHY WOMEN DONT MIND BEING 2ND CLASS CITIZENS

[MrsClown]

I am a feminist. I am 52 years old with 4 grown up children. I shave my legs, paint my nails and wear make up. I am heterosexual and married. I just wondered, why do people assume that I have hairy legs and am a lesbian! Yes, some feminists are lesbians but we are a mixed bunch. Also, can anyone tell me why most women do not mind the fact that they cant walk around where they want to at night, and if they do and something happens they get part of the blame. Why dont women mind that the list of BBC Sports Personality is all male. Why dont women mind that other women are being bought and sold for sex and some are trafficked. If women do mind, why do they not at least attempt to do something about it. Why do most women ridicule me when I say I am a feminist, after all I am in good company (Annie Lennox, Helena Kennedy, Josie Long, Diane Abbott etc). Why do most women think it is ok for men of all ages (including elderly men) have the right to leer at a woman's body (who is probably young enough to be their grand daughter) every day in a 'newspaper'. I could go on. Is there no end to what women will put up with.

I am not being callous with my questions. I have been a feminist for about 40 years and things dont seem to be that much better for women, infact the objectification is much worse. I wondered if anyone would answer me to satisfy my curiosity. I have been ridiculed by so many women during discussions. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but it is usually the non fem who gets annoyed and starts getting upset. Infact, on many occasions men have agreed with me! I cant understand why a mother would not want her daughter to have the same rights as her son.

Sorry to go on but I hope someone will satisfy my curiosity.

While I do know older feminists, who are concerned with single mothers, SAHMs and so on, I can see WB's point to some extent. The OP does seem to have written a post on the position of women with no mention of caring responsibilities, which is a central issue to a lot of posters on MN.

I've also seen articles where an older feminist author was saying things like if a young woman was travelling alone in Afghanistan she should 'expect' to be raped. That made me feel really sick. I think it was Lynne Reid Banks or Fay Weldon or someone. Google it. I don't see how that's in any way feminist, so I don't think it's a new thing that women are ok with anti-feminist sentiments. Lots of women seem to compete amongst themselves rather than cooperating and use a very moralistic, judgemental basis for allowing basic rights to other women, e.g. you aren't entitled to the same as everyone else if you're 'slutty' or if you're a single mother, or whatever- you see it right here, all the time, and people don't even make the connection at all. I think it's just a general human stupidity thing, maybe. Most people are a bit thick.

Sinical it's a fact that there is no observable differences in m/f neurology until the conditioning kicks in.

Surely the difficulty with this is that the hormonal changes that take place in adult men and women don't kick in until the individuals in question have already lived through a number of years of gendered social conditioning? In other words, if there are neurological/hormonal differences, by then they're inseparable from the social conditioning that's already taken place?

That to me seems to leave the question of social conditioning vs biological differences pretty uncertain.

It is true, SinicalSal, that's my perception anyway. If you're a 'regular' on any forum then you will see things differently, perhaps. It doesn't mean that I'm wrong - or you are. We aren't, we just see it differently.

Perhaps people could say 'I hold a lot of feminist opinions' that would be accurate without labelling oneself, if that's not your thing, and also doing a bit for the wider cause by challenging the 'hairy legged' stereotype.

hmm that last bit only works if your legs are smooth but you know what I mean...

And your opinion could be down to feminist conditioning SinicalSal

Either way, whilst I believe in equality, I recognise the differences between men and women and enjoy them.

I recognise the differences between individuals. Men and women are not homogeneous groups.

Well that's where we all differ Trills because I recognise the difference between men and women

i believe the children are our future, treat them well and let let lead the way, show them all the beauty they possess inside. give them a sense of pride.

I like my men to be men - it's kinda nice.

Ahhh, Whitney, such a role model

I do agree largely OTHM there clearly are SOME biological and hormonal differences. But if society didn't insist on overemphasising the meagre differences from day 1, literally, I really don't think there'd be this gulf that we have now. It's so unneccessary and hard on everybody to have to fit into these boxes.

no worra my opinion is based on science.

i decided long ago not to walk in anyones shadow. If i fail, if i suceed at least i know i smoked some weed, no matter what they [tory scum fuckers] take from me...they can't take away my dignity. becuase the greatest love of all is easy to achieve. I found the greatest love of all is now INSIDE OF ME

What you are recognising might not actually be there, that's all...

Let's pick something where you think men and women differ, shall we? Spatial awareness, do you think they differ in that? That's a common one. Or let's just talk about a thing that you believe men are naturally better at than women.

Even if men and women differed in the-thing as much as they differ in height - and that would be a huge huge enormously unlikely thing for any neuroscientist to claim - then there would be lots and lots of overlap.

Many many women would be better at whatever-the-thing-is-that-you-think-men-are-generally-better-at than many many men. So it would be very silly to treat all men as if they were good at thing and all women as if they were bad at thing, when in fact most people are around average at thing and there are lots of people whose liking for or skill at thing would not fit your theory. If you were to discourage girls from doing thing when they showed an interest in it, or if you encouraged boys to do thing when they didn't want to, you'd be doing a lot of children a great disservice.

i don't mind feeling and behaving like a 2nd class citizen sometimes because i have an option. i'll play the role of 50's sahm/housewife for a bit then try something else when i get thoroughly bored of it.

i care deeply about feminist issues but also about other issues, particularly where animals and children are treated as 2nd class citizens.

do we have to be in one camp or another?

That song was sung by a man first - sorry.

Right LyingWitch but do you think what I said about challenging deeply held largely unconscious attitudes makes sense?
99% of the time the arguments aren't designed to hurt or intimidate or whatever, it's about needling to the core of the issue.

The term feminist is just awful! It implies you think women are somehow better than men. I'm an equalitist personally.

"most lesbians are feminists" - haha REALLY? Let's see the great survey you've done of lesbians, then.

I agree OP (although can see why the SHOUTING and slight tone of "no-one on here understaaaands", when in fact MN has loads of feminist posters, has wound people up).

It's not a CHOICE between being annoyed that your daughter has to see disgusting middle age men perving at topless Jody in the Sun, and caring about e.g. the teenager who has been imprisoned for two years for being raped, and is now being freed on the condition she marry her rapist. Both those things come from the same origin which is the male domination of societies.

Custardo ROAR

no it doesn't at all aswellasyou that's just the picture that's painted, to discredit and belittle what feminists do.

emmam25, i think you make a very valid point, and one which certainly reflects my own situation and that of the majority of my female friends.... i did have a highly successful career in a male dominated industry. i am now a SAHM to 3 dc. not because it's a sexist world, but because that's what i chose and want to do. i have freedoms of choice in my life that my mother and grandmother could barely have imagined.

Elephantshas just pretty much posted what I was going to say before Custardo left footed me

I'll be an equalist too. After the revolution. Until then, I'm a feminist.