TO WONDER WHY WOMEN DONT MIND BEING 2ND CLASS CITIZENS

[MrsClown]

I am a feminist. I am 52 years old with 4 grown up children. I shave my legs, paint my nails and wear make up. I am heterosexual and married. I just wondered, why do people assume that I have hairy legs and am a lesbian! Yes, some feminists are lesbians but we are a mixed bunch. Also, can anyone tell me why most women do not mind the fact that they cant walk around where they want to at night, and if they do and something happens they get part of the blame. Why dont women mind that the list of BBC Sports Personality is all male. Why dont women mind that other women are being bought and sold for sex and some are trafficked. If women do mind, why do they not at least attempt to do something about it. Why do most women ridicule me when I say I am a feminist, after all I am in good company (Annie Lennox, Helena Kennedy, Josie Long, Diane Abbott etc). Why do most women think it is ok for men of all ages (including elderly men) have the right to leer at a woman's body (who is probably young enough to be their grand daughter) every day in a 'newspaper'. I could go on. Is there no end to what women will put up with.

I am not being callous with my questions. I have been a feminist for about 40 years and things dont seem to be that much better for women, infact the objectification is much worse. I wondered if anyone would answer me to satisfy my curiosity. I have been ridiculed by so many women during discussions. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but it is usually the non fem who gets annoyed and starts getting upset. Infact, on many occasions men have agreed with me! I cant understand why a mother would not want her daughter to have the same rights as her son.

Sorry to go on but I hope someone will satisfy my curiosity.

Ah hully - lots of people want me to be quiet. Never managed it yet Nature can just fuck off too!

Serenity Its surely an issue that 'feminists' have become so ridiculed that they are then not taken seriously.

Why are many women nowadays ashamed to say they are feminists or claim to not be? Surely its partly because its been so pigeon-holed and people don't want to associate with, as you state, 'shouty feminism'.

Surely you are 'criticising' in the same way you say the OP is by calling this conversation 'low- brow'

Its not a proper feminist discussion because its not in the feminist section?

Gender inequality should be challenged but I don't think expressing your opinion in an online forum is particularly challenging.

I also think a huge amount of inequality in the UK comes down to the biological fact that women who choose to have a family HAVE to carry children and men simply can't. This leads to an inevitable career break (unless you are very lucky and super woman so you can work up til due date and return 2 weeks later) Any equally qualified men have an opportunity to overtake you by virtue of being able to work when a woman simply can't.

Plus after having children I think many women re-evaluate what is important to them choosing to prioritise family over material wealth and goods. Despite the changes the feminism of my mothers generation has brought us, few women in the UK today are choosing to relinquish having a family for a high flying career.

Surely thats the very essence of equality, women choose what they want to do?

I don't feel I'm a second class citizen so the question is irrelevant.

I was brought up to think I'm equal to a man, not the same but equal. If people don't think I am then it's their problem. If they treat me unfairly because of my gender, they will soon be sorry about it.

Op was the one who said we didn't want to discuss it when clearly we were discussing it and responding and putting our PoVs actually

We were just ignored, dismissed or 'not right' and had to assume that although op was serious about
Feminism on the random ageism it was 'a joke'

Hardly the place for any discriminatory 'jokes IMO

emmamm25 there is a lot of 'choosing' in your post

which i find to be fictional IRL IMO

Hully - the point is I should not find feminists scary at all - ( and I genuinely do ) - I know it's only the really mouthy ones who send me running, but it shouldn't be like that, I should adore them. The fact that I find other women ( and women who are supposed to be on my side ) frightening is actually quite shocking if you think about it. To me, feminists today are all about feathering their own nests and pushing their individual agendas - the wider ( and more important ) issues are of no concern to them. That's just my opinion of course.

This is my last post, thank goodness you will all probably say! Firstly, I didnt word it properly (obviously) - I do not think women are 2nd class citizens, they just get treated like it in may spheres of life (not all I admit)

I am in no way saying my opinions are the only opinions which are right. I just wanted some non fem perspective on how I see life. I did not mean to insult anyone and I am sorry it came across like that.

Cocoa - i was not comparing the trafficking of women to the BBC SPOTY. I know the difference. I was trying to condense things because I know how much I can go on. I do know my faults.

Cocoa, I'm not criticising your point because I do think there is an important distinction between sports personalities and the trafficking of women.

But I do think it is said a lot that issues are human rights issues, not women's issues or feminist issues. I think it is worth remembering that the rights of women are specifically mentioned in the International declaration of human rights, particularly with reference to motherhood which applies to women alone. So I think all women's issues are both feminist issues and human rights issues.

'Biological determinism!

Whoo hoo!'

Or, calling it the way it us for us. There are fundamental biological differences between the genders (child bearing springs to mind), and having made a close study of dh and ds, they are different to females in how they think and respond to things. It would be odd not to acknowledge that.

Afaik, the only careers not open to a woman in the UK are those of a nuclear submariner and an RC priest.

I get irritated by these need to label women as feminist or not. We are individuals who have a set of rights.

I too found the OP a bit rude, but I do mind about a number of the things mentioned there. (I have hairy legs at the moment, too, though that's because I keep forgetting and Mr OTH doesn't really care ) However I do get a bit irked wben women tell me I'm 'doing it wrong' or am somehow not in possession of all my faculties simply because I don't have exactly the same views on feminism as them.

Hully I was being a bit flippant - 'bullied' isn't really accurate, and I'm a big girl and can look after myself in any case. It's more that said section does seem to have normalised a level of rudeness in discussions that I prefer not to participate in. There are often topics there that I have a view on but I come on MN to rubberneck at trivial bunfights for diversion and pleasure, not to raise my blood pressure. I have a spectacularly irritating boss who does that job for me already

I have never ever come accross a woman who denies being a feminist. What I have come across is women at pains to emphasis to the world that they are not "shouty" feminists- agressive, rude, patronsining and most of all, ineffectual.

I like equalist too. Pitting women against women= waste of time. We only do it because the true battle is so demoralising and slow to win.

if we are not second class citizens then why do we not have equal representation in government and especially in law making. we may not feel ourselves that we are treated as such in everyday life but we still are. when there are as many women as men making decisions on our everyday lives this is when it will start truly becoming equal

we are also not equally represented or anywhere nearly so in banking, law, senior management, police force, media

It's just my opinion Custardo, based on my limited experience of people I meet day to day.

I appreciate there will be some women who are not making these choices. I do campaign to enable them to be able to make their own choices.

Someone mentioned it was wrong to think that because you have never personally felt sidelined because of your gender doesn't mean sexism isn't rife and that has made me think I'm very lucky to be in the position I am. Thanks for making me reflect on this a little more

I am of your generation OP and have always considered myself to be a feminist - but I am so bloody bored of being ranted at by other women who seem to actively despise women who do not think/behave like them.

What the fuck is a 'non fem'? A woman do you mean?
Who uses ridiculous identity branding like that?

Pah.

Ah, just seen the OP's latest. It sounds like your OP was passionate rather than hectoring, and maybe the tone just didn't quite come across. Hats off for not just digging in and getting defensive, and don't stop posting as to me it seems really valuable when there's a discussion about feminism in AIBU or Chat as it attracts a different section of posters to respond than you might see in FWR.

Everybody here has expressed feminist opinions - eg I'm the equal to any man and if I was treated worse than man I'd fight it.

So what's the problem?

Why don't people say 'I'm a feminist' as a handy one word descriptor rather than a more long winded paragraph?

there is not one flavour of feminist, just people who approve of equality between the sexes and think there should be more of it.

'I believe in equality, but I also believe that men and women are different, have different strengths, different attitudes, and different traits. Some things are typically male, others are typically female. It is not stereotyping, it is nature.'

Absolutely right!

Well, that is mostly societal conditioning worra, it's a fact that there is no observable differences in m/f neurology until the conditioning kicks in.
If you think things are fine as they are you won't be interested in changing societies' influences, but if you think the differences are more trouble than they're worth you'll try to stop perpetuating them.

SinicalSal... because, depending on where you post, you will be quizzed and judged on your feminist 'credentials', possibly found wanting and deemed unworthy of the title of 'feminist'. That should not be the case but it often is.

Er. TBH I think most older feminists aren't really feminist any more. Lots of you seem to support cutting of state support for single mothers, for example, which is deeply and repulsively anti-feminist as it devalues the child-raising labour of women unless they also act as prostitutes to a male partner (don't blame me for that phrasing, blame Mary Wollestonecraft, who is an even older feminist than you, and one who did value womens' caring work). Lots of the people who claim to be feminist seem to be more shallow girl-power types who think it's fine to discriminate against women in job intervwiews if they don't wear make up, etc. I apologise if you aren't one of these, but I actually don't believe older women are the hardcore feminists they like to think- most are just common or garden tories in lipstick and power-suits.

or you could be a non feminist as opposed to an anti feminist. you could believe that equality is hugely important but not hold feminism as your personal ideology

That is not true LyingWitch arguments are picked apart to the very bare bones but people aren't. arguments are one thing, I know. But peoples' attitudes are deeply internalised, it can feel a bit personal when they are deconstructed. but it's not meant to be a personal thing. Even if some posters get passionate and heated.

sorry bad typing feeding baby

I've decided that I'm happy with the label 'fairness barometer'. I shall get myself a badge.