TO WONDER WHY WOMEN DONT MIND BEING 2ND CLASS CITIZENS

[MrsClown]

I am a feminist. I am 52 years old with 4 grown up children. I shave my legs, paint my nails and wear make up. I am heterosexual and married. I just wondered, why do people assume that I have hairy legs and am a lesbian! Yes, some feminists are lesbians but we are a mixed bunch. Also, can anyone tell me why most women do not mind the fact that they cant walk around where they want to at night, and if they do and something happens they get part of the blame. Why dont women mind that the list of BBC Sports Personality is all male. Why dont women mind that other women are being bought and sold for sex and some are trafficked. If women do mind, why do they not at least attempt to do something about it. Why do most women ridicule me when I say I am a feminist, after all I am in good company (Annie Lennox, Helena Kennedy, Josie Long, Diane Abbott etc). Why do most women think it is ok for men of all ages (including elderly men) have the right to leer at a woman's body (who is probably young enough to be their grand daughter) every day in a 'newspaper'. I could go on. Is there no end to what women will put up with.

I am not being callous with my questions. I have been a feminist for about 40 years and things dont seem to be that much better for women, infact the objectification is much worse. I wondered if anyone would answer me to satisfy my curiosity. I have been ridiculed by so many women during discussions. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but it is usually the non fem who gets annoyed and starts getting upset. Infact, on many occasions men have agreed with me! I cant understand why a mother would not want her daughter to have the same rights as her son.

Sorry to go on but I hope someone will satisfy my curiosity.

what feminism has done is change the law so that now, a woman entering a marriage DOES have the same right to a divorce,
Shared property in the event of a separation, shared (or any) custody of the children in the event of a separation, and ownership of her body as the man entering the marriage does.

But to assert that a woman in C19th England had those rights is just factually incorrect, sorry.

I agree that there needed to be change-and women's rights were appalling and I am all for the feminist movement.
I didn't say that she had rights-just that she would have laughed at the thought that she would have put up with 'the rights' within the marriage-(had she wanted a divorce she wouldn't have had the choice-but within the marriage she ran things her way)

"I didn't say that she had rights"

"She had equal rights in her marriage"

I think perhaps this is where some of our problems start. You did say she had rights. And she didn't. What you meant (And I get what you meant) was that she wasn't an easily victimized person, she was tough and (it sounds) pretty brilliant.

The fact that women are exceptionally strong, loving and kind and resilient, does not make their oppression go away. I am not a 'victim' in that I curl up into a ball and cry all day. But I am a victim in that I live in a society that systematically oppresses me because I am a woman and not a man. I am tough, clever, loving, and also really good at both baking and DIY - doesn't mean I have equal treatment to the men around me. I don't. I am more likely to be raped, stalked, murdered by a domestic partner, assaulted by someone I love, criticized for being a working parent, criticized for being a stay-at-home parent, criticized for being uncaring, criticized for being emotional, criticized if my toddler acts up in public... than my DH.

Just because I am fecking awesome doesn't mean there's no sexism. There's a lot of sexism. There's a lot of feminism still needed.

And I want it for my DS, too. I want him to know that he can cry, he can love, he can hate violence and not be that sporty and even be gay if he feels like it, and that 'being a man' doesn't involve drinking and shouting and browbeating others and pissing his life away - it involves self-respect, respect for others, and care for the world.

DS is lucky, he has a feminist dad who models what being a real man is, day in and day out. But for a lot of boys, the patriarchy is taking away their options and stunting their emotions minute by minute. That's why being a mother made me a feminist.

Exocticfruits your grandmother sounds great.

It would be victim blaming however to imply that other women who were/are less able to stand up for themselves are somehow responsible for the actions of those who treat them badly.

Lots of women would have lost their jobs if they hadn't 'stood for' the way their male boss spoke to them. They would have had no rights or legal recourse on the matter.

I expect that you are right Beachcomber-I was just brought up by a strong mother and grandmother who expected me to be the same. I have 2 brothers and there was never any difference between us i.e. education just as important, we all did the same amount of housework etc so I do find it difficult to put myself in the place of those who found it different. Ignore me.

And I want it for my DS, too. I want him to know that he can cry, he can love, he can hate violence and not be that sporty and even be gay if he feels like it, and that 'being a man' doesn't involve drinking and shouting and browbeating others and pissing his life away - it involves self-respect, respect for others, and care for the world

My DSs are like this. DH is too-he can turn his hand to anything e.g. if he wants a button sewing on he finds the sewing box and does it. I think it the norm-it obviously isn't.

I was brought up by women who didn't take any shit too.

I'm still glad that there are radical feminists fighting for the right of all women not to be bought and sold, not to be raped, not to be beaten, not to be abused, to be paid for the work they do outside the home and respected for the work they do inside it, to have our boundaries and bodily integrity respected.

(There are of course many people who also fight for these rights who are not radical feminists - but radical feminists are the group who have politicized this movement and who have identified and put words on the issues at hand.)

I think one of the things that distinguish activists from everyone else who's also struggling to get by is an investment in the bigger picture.

One of my best friends is very involved in anti-racist activism. It means a lot to her, and while I do my best in my daily life to combat racism- but it's not hitting me where I live, quite as much as it does her. She knows a lot more about how racism is happening and what to do about it, and I listen to her and go with her to stuff- but I'm not as active as her. I'm not an anti-racist "activist". I love that she's out there, trying to make the world better for everyone. We've all only got so much energy, y'know, and mine is directed elsewhere most of the time - but I'm glad she exists, and people like her exist.

What I'd never dream of doing is telling her that "Oh gosh, I don't experience racism that much in my life. Maybe you should be less aggressively anti-racism?" Just cos I'm alright, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

I'm a feminist. I'm clued into when sexism happens, and I want to fight it. I know a lot of women who don't take any shit. hell, I don't take any shit. But it doesn't mean that sexism doesn't happen to me- it does, we live in a sexist world.

To all the people who are calling feminists all these names: I just don't get it!
It doesn't have to be your fight all the time, if you don't want to march. But honestly, to attack the people trying to make the world better for you and yours... why?

I should never get involved in these threads-when you see what happens in countries like Afganistan of course you need radical feminists.

My lack of understanding comes from women who don't-the very first time they are hit or called a bitch or worse-say 'on your bike sunshine' and stop seeing them.

I think I over simplify. As I said-ignore me.

Hi - I have to confess I haven't read the thread in its entirety so apologies if I am repeating other posters comments, however:

1. Women have been oppressed by men for centuries, and in many places in the world they are still being thoroughly oppressed. This fight is not over by any means.
2. broadly speaking the majority of the wealth in this world is in the possession of rich middle class white men, with access to opportunities that women have not had. Much business is still done out of the boardroom on boys golf trips for example.
3. This means women still lack economic power in their own right (sure you can cite examples of women with economic power but these are the exception not the rule) economic power is power in a capitalist society.
4. Men and women are different in some fundamental biological ways, however activities which are predominantly female are not valued by society. For example raising children - this is possibly the most important activity in any society, and yet: i) Women get paid a pittance in maternity benefits (surely producing children which carries with it risk of death and can totally ravage a body is more important than moving currencies around for example, so why is so little granted financially to women) ii) They are then paid less on average per hour for part time work than a full time male in an equivalent role whilst they continue to raise children, again decimating their economic power. Whilst women who choose to be SAHM are often described as benefits scroungers if they are not married to a rich middle class white male and are therefore allowed the patronising tag of 'yummy mummy'. iii) Upon returning to work full time they are often discriminated against for the very fact they are mothers and opportunities are given to younger male colleagues who have not taken time out of work to raise a family.
5. I never believed for a minute that I was discriminated against until I hit the age where people started to think you might have children soon. I accelerated through my career very quickly and then there was an abrupt stop once my (middle class, white, male bosses) started to think I might be baby making soon and opportunities stopped coming my way even when I pursued them.
6. Men are often very patronising to angry women, calling them irrational and emotional to undermine valid complaints.
7. look at the misogyny directed at female bloggers who dare to have an opinion (there was a thread about this on MN a little while ago. I can't find it now) and the threat of sexual violence is often used to try and silence them.

Sorry I am very angry about all this and I know some of you will come back and say I am making mass generalisations, but this post is long enough as it is without citing sources as well.

I think the poor, the young and women are all massively discriminated against.

Excellent post blackcurrants.

Also - who is it making feminist and undesirable label with undesirable connotations - the white middle class press? Misogynists like Jeremy Clarkson?

Being a feminist should be something we should be proud of. We should not sell ourselves short.

Therein lies the difference perhaps.

As a radical feminist, I don't ask why the women don't stop men hitting them, sexually assaulting them, heckling them on the street, etc.

I ask; when are the male perpetrators going to stop with the male violence already?

And northeastofeden, all you say is true.

Thanks MarianneM and Blackcurrants I agree with your comments.

this is an interesting point you have raised, exoticfruits

Sometimes the very first time you are hit or called a bitch is while you are pregnant. I remember my mw telling me that that is a classic time for abuse to start

i have not had this experience, but i can understand why some women might not be chomping at the bit to say 'on your bike sunshine' at that time

i am really reluctant to turn it around and ask 'why do you let yourself get hit'; to me it makes more sense to ask 'what are the ways our society and culture collude both overtly and covertly to permit him to hit, and how do we stop it'

in my opinion seeking answers to questions like these has the potential yo change systems, and benefit all women. trying to resolve why one woman is hit may only help that woman, while lowing the culture that facilitates it to carry on unchanged

what do other posters think?

gah some goofy typos but i think the gist of it clear

Agree chibi.

Which for me, is what feminism, as a political movement, does.

Yes, beachcomber - that's key for me. The question isn't "when will all these women stop being victims of sexism?" but - "When will the sexism stop?"

Agree beachcomberand chibi.

Funnily enough I never knew I was a feminist until I came on mumsnet! It is def making me more political.

One fingered typing while I drink my wine, it's not too early is it?!

I cautiously identify as a feminist. I say cautiously not because of how people in general life will take it but because of how I have seen certain feminists treat others who dont always see things their way.

I have seen a (self confessed drunk at the time) feminist on here drive a male victim of domestic violence off a discussion thread. She did later apologise, but im not sure he has ever come back.

I saw another thread where a group of feminists attempted to bully a wife into believing that her husband raped her because he has a sleep disorder. Even when she had clearly stated that she was awake and consenting to sex.

This is the kind of thing that puts people off of identifying as feminists. am very grateful for what feminism has given women. And would not stand for being treated as second class. Im sure that this post will ruffle a few feathers but so be it. As a group we feminists need to be sure that we are not replacing misogyny with another set or controls that tells women how to think feel and behave. It is examples like the two I mentioned that unfortunatly get remembered and drive women away from feminism.

Northeastofeden - that is a sobering list.

I had radical leanings before becoming a mother, but the experience of being a mother definitely radicalised me.

Yabvu by shouting in your thread title.

KoPo. - agree with your post. I remember those threads. They are exactly the reason people are wary of feminism on Mumsnet and end up avoiding the FWR board. Some of the feminists still insist that posters are against feminists when its's really it's nothing to do with feminists, just that they can't go women who harass, bully and belittle, especially when their mates jump in and take over the thread when everyone else has had enough and bogged off and left them to it, congratulating themselves that they won the argument and now everyone is in agreement and everything is all right with the world again.

I have just come back to MN after a period of not posting much because I was getting put off bothering with the place due to the regular feminist bashing threads.

Don't people see how unpleasant it is to do this? Did you report those threads? Did you report the posters and have MNHQ deal with them? Do you think drunk posters hounding male victims of DV is representative of the posters in the FWR section in general? (I remember that thread - the poster in question got herself very confused due to alcohol and was unpleasant. She did apologise and try to explain. IIRC most posters on the thread were telling her to pack it in). I don't think she was a regular poster in FWR.

All this naming no names but calling people bullies and such is just nasty. I know I'm not the only poster who has been put off MN due to this regular aggression towards posters who identify as feminists.

I'm frankly quite sick of having posters I have never exchanged with telling me that I'm part of some blanket group who bully, harass, belittle, gang up, insult, attack, tell people what to think and who is an extremist nutty man hating zealot with ego problems and questionable mental health.

Who do you think you are to behave like this? Please leave me and posters like me alone. Stop persecuting me because you don't get my politics.

And all this 'oh but we don't mean you Beachcomber if you don't behave like this, why are you offended if you are not concerned?' stuff is dishonest. I am a radical feminist and a regular on the FWR section - I am part of the group that these group insults are aimed at, how can I not take it personally?

This is why MN has guidelines about keeping things on a thread. If you have a problem with the way I or other posters address you, report it. MN will delete the post if it is an attack, they will email the poster about their tone if they feel that a poster is out of order on a regular basis.

I have reported dozens and dozens of posts in the FWR section which were personal attacks on myself or other posters. MNHQ delete them and I move on - I don't go dragging the stuff across the board and bitching about people.