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Original poster

TO WONDER WHY WOMEN DONT MIND BEING 2ND CLASS CITIZENS

489 replies

MrsClown · 02/12/2011 11:10

I am a feminist. I am 52 years old with 4 grown up children. I shave my legs, paint my nails and wear make up. I am heterosexual and married. I just wondered, why do people assume that I have hairy legs and am a lesbian! Yes, some feminists are lesbians but we are a mixed bunch. Also, can anyone tell me why most women do not mind the fact that they cant walk around where they want to at night, and if they do and something happens they get part of the blame. Why dont women mind that the list of BBC Sports Personality is all male. Why dont women mind that other women are being bought and sold for sex and some are trafficked. If women do mind, why do they not at least attempt to do something about it. Why do most women ridicule me when I say I am a feminist, after all I am in good company (Annie Lennox, Helena Kennedy, Josie Long, Diane Abbott etc). Why do most women think it is ok for men of all ages (including elderly men) have the right to leer at a woman's body (who is probably young enough to be their grand daughter) every day in a 'newspaper'. I could go on. Is there no end to what women will put up with.

I am not being callous with my questions. I have been a feminist for about 40 years and things dont seem to be that much better for women, infact the objectification is much worse. I wondered if anyone would answer me to satisfy my curiosity. I have been ridiculed by so many women during discussions. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but it is usually the non fem who gets annoyed and starts getting upset. Infact, on many occasions men have agreed with me! I cant understand why a mother would not want her daughter to have the same rights as her son.

Sorry to go on but I hope someone will satisfy my curiosity.

OP posts:
dancingmustard · 02/12/2011 23:03

I haven't got an ideology.
To be honest ideology smacks a bit too much like cultish sheepish behaviour and following a self/group imposed doctrine/mantra.
I don't believe radical feminism has achieved anything.
But I do believe women have.
Every woman who's fought to feed and cloth children on a pittance.
Every mother who shopped an abusive partner.
Feminism comes in many guises and those guises rarely include slutwalks and reclaiming the night etc.

DeckTheHugeWithBoughsOfManatee · 02/12/2011 23:04
Prolesworth · 02/12/2011 23:08

Yeah, radical feminists have achieved nothing. I mean rape crisis centres and women's refuges, those aren't even worth mentioning, right?

FFS

dancingmustard · 02/12/2011 23:10

Women achieved that prolesworth.
Feminists.
But feel free to take that credit and wear it like a badge of honour.
That's why radical feminism insults women.
Like you are now in fact.

thunderboltsandlightning · 02/12/2011 23:11

Everybody has an ideology whether they are aware of it or not DancingMustard. It's why you're on this thread arguing against radical feminism, because it's ideology conflicts with yours.

Ideology is a set of beliefs that inform our approach to the world. So if you think men and women are equal now for example, that's part of an ideology.

I've listed radical feminism's achievements there. If you think it's achieved nothing I take it you'll be happy for:

Rape in marriage to be legal again
Genocidal rape to not be a war crime
there to be no rape crisis movement
there to be no Refuge/Women's Aid
there to be no feminist criticism of the sex and porn industries
it to be legal in Scandinavia for men to pay prostituted women for sex
etc etc

Manatee, I'm so glad you took that post in the spirit it was intended!

dancingmustard · 02/12/2011 23:13

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

Whatmeworry · 02/12/2011 23:14

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thunderboltsandlightning · 02/12/2011 23:19

For someone without an ideology you have some pretty strong opinions about an ideology you disagree with dancingmustard.

I'm not telling you either how to think and behave. I was making an observation. It's allowed. There have certainly been enough crap observations made here about feminists/radical feminists.

Also, you're wrong about the rape crisis movement and the refuge movement. They were started by radical feminists. Before radical feminism came along there was no political analysis of male violence against women and therefore no activism against it.

In fact not only were they run by radical feminists, they were often run by radical feminist lesbian separatists. Probably some of the most evil people in the world according to certain feminist critics (none on this thread of course).

dancingmustard · 02/12/2011 23:23

I didn't make an observation about feminists.
Radical feminists were the topic of my post/s.
Can you at least try to pinpoint the point of my argument correctly.
I'm getting out of this thread before i become indoctrinated bored with the endless chest banging.

Prolesworth · 02/12/2011 23:23

OK, I'll ask again. How would "being firm but moderate and reasonable" on a large scale work to solve the violence women face all over the world then WMW?

Genuinely interested to hear these ideas. I don't know why you felt the need to make a snarky remark at me.

thunderboltsandlightning · 02/12/2011 23:27

I didn't say you did.

I said I made an observation dancingmustard.

thunderboltsandlightning · 02/12/2011 23:31

But of course you get to ignore the main point of my post that the rape crisis movement and the refuge movement for women fleeing domestic violence were started by radical feminists.

A1980 · 02/12/2011 23:35

I don't have time to read anything other than the OP. But FFS!

Women don't have to have a hand in everything you know. We have made so many advanaces in other areas. Come to my law firm: there are hardly any men! At my Law Society Admission Ceremony a few years ago, men were outnumbered 5-1, I kid you not! Women now make up more than half of medical students.....!

A1980 · 02/12/2011 23:36

^ By everything, I was talking about the BBC sports personality reference in the OP.

ouryve · 02/12/2011 23:49

I'm glad you find my refusal to be told what to think "unbelievable" MarianneM Your reaction makes me feel justified in my observation of irony and even hypocrisy in the fact that the solution, in some people's eyes, to freeing ourselves as womankind of the grip of patriarchy is to fully submit to some feminist ideal which we may or may not 100% subscribe to.

ChickenLickn · 03/12/2011 01:15

hmm I quite like being able to vote, controlling my own reproductive system, and getting the same pay if Im doing the same job as anyone else.

However these are not all yet won, or set in stone, there is still some way to go and the presuure for fairness must be maintained.

Thank you feminists!

HowlingBitch · 03/12/2011 01:33

Come now, It's Friday. Can't we all just get along?

HowlingBitch · 03/12/2011 01:34

Well Saturday now but this all kicked off on Friday night and I was busy looking after a kitten

Beachcomber · 03/12/2011 08:18

I'm a radical feminist Smile.

There are a few posters here who seem to have a real issue with radical feminism. I would like to ask - first of all, what is your definition of radical feminism and which of its basic tenets do you disagree with?

It is of course fine to disagree with the political movement that is radical feminism - it is less fine to not acknowledge what the movement has done for women (the things listed above).

It makes me quite sad to see women having such hostility for radical feminism - without it women would still be treated as belonging to men. A scary thought.

exoticfruits · 03/12/2011 08:48

My grandmother, born late 19th century, would have laughed and laughed if anyone thought she belonged to a man, and she had never heard of radical feminists.

sozzledchops · 03/12/2011 09:28

I have no beef with feminists, many of them did and still do a fantastic job. I don't really label myself as one as I don't really get involved with feminist groups or actions. I do agree with what feminists generally believe in if that is equality in education, the workplace, the right to decide how they should live their life. I don't really know what radical feminism is and I don't think posters probably have a hostility towards feminism or radical feminism but I do know that find that some of the more vocal of the radical feminists or femists on MN are wery arrogant, belligerent, unwelcoming, seem a bit anti men and very off putting. There are feminist posters who I enjoy reading their opinions and thoughts and who have really made me think. who don't seem concerned with who is the best feminist or trying to prove they are more feminist than others.

Just because I don't agree or get along with a few posters doesn't mean I'm anti feminist.

Beachcomber · 03/12/2011 09:53

And your point is?

That she was lucky?

Personally I don't want to go back to the 19th century when rape within marriage was legal (marital rape became a crime in 1982 in Scotland and in 1991 in England) and women did have the legal right to control their earnings.

Until the Married Women's Property Act of 1882 (ie nearing the end of the 19th century), this was the legal status of a married woman;

English law defined the role of the wife as a ?feme covert?, emphasizing her subordination to her husband, and putting her under the ?protection and influence of her husband, her baron, or lord? (see Coverture). Upon marriage, the husband and wife became one person under the law, as the property of the wife was surrendered to her husband, and her legal identity ceased to exist. Any personal property acquired by the wife during the marriage, unless specified that it was for her own separate use, went automatically to her husband. If a woman writer had copyright before marriage, the copyright would pass to the husband afterwards, for instance. Further, married women were unable to draft wills or dispose of any property without their husbands? consent.

Of course laws can be changed overnight - societal attitudes not so much. Women have come a very long way in a relatively short time.

Of course this law was passed long before radical feminists came along in the timeline of women's history. It is a timeline though - feminism is a movement, and each group or individual who participates in the bettering of things for women, is part of that history.

Personally I'm thankful and immensely grateful to those women. I'm lucky too, like your grandmother - my husband doesn't think that he is entitled to rape me or beat me or abuse me or tell me what to do. Thanks to radical feminists I would have somewhere to go and support and protection if I were not so lucky though.

Beachcomber · 03/12/2011 10:01

Thank you for your honesty sozzled.

Hating man is not a basic tenet of radical feminism - fighting male violence is. I get quite worked up by how people can confound these two entirely different things.

Naming male violence against women for what it is, is not 'hating men'.

Beachcomber · 03/12/2011 10:06

Forgot to say this;

Upon marriage, the husband and wife became one person under the law

This is the historical reason why your bank may refer to you as Mrs Husband's First Name Husband's Second Name.

We are still living in the legacy of this recent past (and would be foolish not to see that - which is sort of what I think the OP of this thread is about).

AyeSmagic · 03/12/2011 10:10

And don't forget the Custody of Infants Act 1839 which came from the fight of one women, Caroline Norton, who had pretty much no support in her lifetime to even see her children, let alone have custody of them. Indeed, the comments made against her were very much in the same vein as those on this thread.

Being appeasing rarely Gets Anything Done.

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