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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

TO WONDER WHY WOMEN DONT MIND BEING 2ND CLASS CITIZENS

489 replies

MrsClown · 02/12/2011 11:10

I am a feminist. I am 52 years old with 4 grown up children. I shave my legs, paint my nails and wear make up. I am heterosexual and married. I just wondered, why do people assume that I have hairy legs and am a lesbian! Yes, some feminists are lesbians but we are a mixed bunch. Also, can anyone tell me why most women do not mind the fact that they cant walk around where they want to at night, and if they do and something happens they get part of the blame. Why dont women mind that the list of BBC Sports Personality is all male. Why dont women mind that other women are being bought and sold for sex and some are trafficked. If women do mind, why do they not at least attempt to do something about it. Why do most women ridicule me when I say I am a feminist, after all I am in good company (Annie Lennox, Helena Kennedy, Josie Long, Diane Abbott etc). Why do most women think it is ok for men of all ages (including elderly men) have the right to leer at a woman's body (who is probably young enough to be their grand daughter) every day in a 'newspaper'. I could go on. Is there no end to what women will put up with.

I am not being callous with my questions. I have been a feminist for about 40 years and things dont seem to be that much better for women, infact the objectification is much worse. I wondered if anyone would answer me to satisfy my curiosity. I have been ridiculed by so many women during discussions. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but it is usually the non fem who gets annoyed and starts getting upset. Infact, on many occasions men have agreed with me! I cant understand why a mother would not want her daughter to have the same rights as her son.

Sorry to go on but I hope someone will satisfy my curiosity.

OP posts:
dancingmustard · 02/12/2011 21:47

Posters on here have recognised themselves as feminists but have not subscribes to the radical feminist opinions.
There shouldn't be a problem with that,should there?

forkful · 02/12/2011 21:52

feminist or non feminist, equalist or whateverist

please come and support this campaign thread to stop Dads(*) getting away without paying ANY child maintenance and to prevent the CSA from starting to charge Mums to access the service and starting to deduct a percentage fee.

(*) - the overwhelming majority of non resident parents are Dads

jollydiane · 02/12/2011 21:52

I don't think I am feminist or any other label you might care to give me. I simply try to live a good life and try to be fair to all.

dancingmustard · 02/12/2011 21:57

I wont support that forkful until the term parent is used instead of dads.
Disclaiming your rhetoric doesn't make it right.

thunderboltsandlightning · 02/12/2011 22:00

Esta once again where do you get the idea that non-feminist implies "unenlightened sub-species"

Whatmeworry · 02/12/2011 22:01

What's extreme is the epidemic of rape and violence that men commit against women across the world, day in day out. What's extreme is the way that men have stolen for themselves almost all the political, economic and social power in this world. What's extreme is the massive sex and porn industries purely designed so men can buy and sell women's bodies. Standing against those things and objecting to them is not extreme.

Thunders, I broadly agree with the analysis, but surely even you must admit that the dominant radical feminist doctrines of the last 2 decades or so have had little positive impact, more a backlash in fact.

Only the insane keep on doing the same thing expecting a different result.

IMO the current financial meltdown is a once in a generation (or even 2 generation) opportunity to change people's mindset, but any feminist counter-proposal needs to take most women with it and I don't think the current Feminist doctrines hack it.

There is an urgent need for a new narrative IMO

Esta3GG · 02/12/2011 22:05

Why no attempt to answer my questions Thunder?
They weren't rhetorical.

thunderboltsandlightning · 02/12/2011 22:11

I'd disagree WMW.

Male violence against women was barely acknowledged before radical feminism came along - now the fight against it is one of the planks of US foreign policy, alongside it being one of the UN Millenium goals to end violence against women. When Hillary Clinton made her speech "Women's Rights are Human Rights" in Beijing in 1995, her arguments came directly from radical feminism. There is also a rape crisis movement and a refuge movement that were also non-existent before radical feminism came along, they were started and are still often run by radical feminists. We have genocidal rape now recognised as a war crime. We have rape in marriage made illegal, a complete turn around from the idea that men have conjugal "rights" to their wives' bodies.

Considering what a short time that radical feminism has been in existence it has has a huge impact.

What gains for women has your ideology achieved WMW?

thunderboltsandlightning · 02/12/2011 22:12

I asked you a question first Esta, which you didn't bother to answer.

First things first.

exoticfruits · 02/12/2011 22:13

I would never label myself anything and I have never felt second class.

Esta3GG · 02/12/2011 22:27

I would have thought my earlier post was perfectly clear Thunders.
But let me spell it out for you again.
The term non-feminist is bandied about on these boards in a way which asserts a superiority of opinion by those who elected to brand themselves as feminists. (Even shorted to the ridiculous non-fem. As if the opinions of millions of women can be distilled into something as idiotically oversimplistic and crass as "non-fem").
Non-feminist is wholly negative terminology. Its is "not" something. And it is used pretty much uniquely by people who have elected to brand themselves as feminists.
I don't know any woman who would wholly reject the basic tenets of equality and women's rights - and it is presumptuous of anyone to impose a definition on a group of people without truly establishing what their beliefs are.

thunderboltsandlightning · 02/12/2011 22:29

Examples please of this "assertion of superiority of opinion". Those are strong claims you're making Esta.

I was using the term non-feminist as a simple delineation between the feminists (who have been attacked here) and the people who don't call themselves feminists who are making the attacks. That's all.

thunderboltsandlightning · 02/12/2011 22:30

Oh and if you're a feminist then clearly the term non-feminist doens't apply to you. Are you a feminist Esta?

dancingmustard · 02/12/2011 22:36

Radical feminist have been challenged they haven't been set on by a pack of baying dogs attacked.
And i'm a feminist.

DeckTheHugeWithBoughsOfManatee · 02/12/2011 22:36

Just popping in to say I didn't describe feminists as pompous-self-righteous zealots. That would be an egregious misreading of my post.

I described as as pompous self-righteous zealots the very small minority of individuals, among those who self-identify as feminists, who are attracted to feminism more for its value as a buttress for their sense of personal importance than out of any real interest in anyone's ideas or experience other than their own, and who use the political affiliation to cloak their fragile egos in a fog of virtuous outrage.

It's a personality type that is by no means unique to feminism. People like that turn up just as often in minority political parties, religions and schools to name but a few. I just find it particularly irritating when such people call themselves feminists. While I have a huge amount of time and respect for feminism, I resent being called to stand in class solidarity with someone who just wants to use a group I belong to as an ego prop - and then to have it suggested that I'm some sort of traitor to that group when I object.

Esta3GG · 02/12/2011 22:38

When will you answer my questions Thunders?

Esta3GG · 02/12/2011 22:40

Hell Manatee I think I love you.

Whatmeworry · 02/12/2011 22:43

Considering what a short time that radical feminism has been in existence it has has a huge impact

I would dispute your analysis on the grounds of both impact and naivete, but it isn't worth it, as in your eyes There is No Problem.

What gains for women has your ideology achieved WMW?

I have found that being firm but moderate and reasonable has worked pretty well on a small scale for me in life so far, I reckon given a chance it could work well at a large scale.

And in my opinion any movement that had a large number of UK women behind it would have hugely significant impact - just look at the impact MN has had already.

thunderboltsandlightning · 02/12/2011 22:45

I just did answer your question Esta -

"I was using the term non-feminist as a simple delineation between the feminists (who have been attacked here) and the people who don't call themselves feminists who are making the attacks. That's all."

Hope that explains where it came from in my case anyway.

thunderboltsandlightning · 02/12/2011 22:48

So whilst radical feminism has made massive gains for millions of women in various ways with regards to protection against male violence, your ideology has made some gains for yourself WMW.

Can you see why it's rather difficult to take your criticisms of radical feminism seriously?

Mind you if you've got a set of ideas that will work better for women you should go ahead and promote them. Radical feminists want a better world for women. If your ideas are better than what's already on the table then I'm sure we can all get behind them.

Prolesworth · 02/12/2011 22:51

How would "being firm but moderate and reasonable" on a large scale work to solve the violence women face all over the world then WMW?

As thunderbolts says, if you've got some workable ideas I'm sure we would all get behind them. Let's hear them.

thunderboltsandlightning · 02/12/2011 22:54

That's interesting Manatee, because I've felt that a small number of people who criticise feminism are pompous pontificating ignorant blowhards, who are more interested in the sounds of their own voices than ever doing something as mundane as actually examining what women's reality is like, and who are probably so mired in misogyny anyway that they wouldn't recognise the value of a feminist argument even if it was written in mile high letters of fire from one end of the sky to another.

I'm jolly glad that they're on the outside pissing in mind you, because outside is exactly where they belong.

dancingmustard · 02/12/2011 22:57

Again.
Feminism wasn't and hasn't been criticised.
Radical feminism has.
Most women don't subscribe to radical feminism.
Are we all wrong?
And you're right?

thunderboltsandlightning · 02/12/2011 22:57

Not that I mean anybody here by that of course. Just to be clear.

thunderboltsandlightning · 02/12/2011 22:59

It was simply feminism earlier dancingmustard.

Guess I'd ask you the same question though as I asked WMW. What has your ideology achieved for women, particularly in terms of combatting male violence against women.