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Original poster

TO WONDER WHY WOMEN DONT MIND BEING 2ND CLASS CITIZENS

489 replies

MrsClown · 02/12/2011 11:10

I am a feminist. I am 52 years old with 4 grown up children. I shave my legs, paint my nails and wear make up. I am heterosexual and married. I just wondered, why do people assume that I have hairy legs and am a lesbian! Yes, some feminists are lesbians but we are a mixed bunch. Also, can anyone tell me why most women do not mind the fact that they cant walk around where they want to at night, and if they do and something happens they get part of the blame. Why dont women mind that the list of BBC Sports Personality is all male. Why dont women mind that other women are being bought and sold for sex and some are trafficked. If women do mind, why do they not at least attempt to do something about it. Why do most women ridicule me when I say I am a feminist, after all I am in good company (Annie Lennox, Helena Kennedy, Josie Long, Diane Abbott etc). Why do most women think it is ok for men of all ages (including elderly men) have the right to leer at a woman's body (who is probably young enough to be their grand daughter) every day in a 'newspaper'. I could go on. Is there no end to what women will put up with.

I am not being callous with my questions. I have been a feminist for about 40 years and things dont seem to be that much better for women, infact the objectification is much worse. I wondered if anyone would answer me to satisfy my curiosity. I have been ridiculed by so many women during discussions. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but it is usually the non fem who gets annoyed and starts getting upset. Infact, on many occasions men have agreed with me! I cant understand why a mother would not want her daughter to have the same rights as her son.

Sorry to go on but I hope someone will satisfy my curiosity.

OP posts:
Portofino · 02/12/2011 19:57

I could not describe radical feminists on the FWR as "frothers"!!!! They are normally very well educated and well read on the subject.

DedalusDigglesPocketWatch · 02/12/2011 19:58

Porto -That is a very good point, I understand that.
I am not against people being treated equally (obviously) But as mentioned by another poster, people can get put off by people thinking/wanting women to be 'superior'

As a child, my (separated) mother always drummed it into me that whatever a man could do, women can do better. I believed this for a long time. I went to train in a very male dominated career, almost killing myself trying to be better than the men. It didn't work.

I now hold the opinion that some people are better at some things than others, there is nothing wrong with that.

I get put off 'feminism' now, mostly due to the number of threads in the topic about letting girls have pink and dolls. Women have battled over the years for equality (not superiority) and now people ae stressing about kids having pink and dolls, I just don't get it Confused

Please excuse the ridiculous slowness of the post, my laptop is pissing about

sozzledchops · 02/12/2011 19:59

Porto - you can be all that and still froth.

MarianneM · 02/12/2011 20:00

Deck, the poster I answered said that some of the "frothing types" put her off feminism which is crazy.

Portofino · 02/12/2011 20:05

The point should be (imho) that there is nothing wrong with pink and dolls. There is nothing evil about the colour pink! Girls and boys should be able to like what they like. I had Hot Wheels and a toy garage when I was little. My dd likes Littlest Pet Shop. It doesn't define your life. Generally there is only a problem when someone's ds covets a toy kitchen and the DH disapproves....

DedalusDigglesPocketWatch · 02/12/2011 20:10

I saw a thread earlier about someone wanting all childrens clothes to be neutral WTF? Confused

Maybe I just don't get it

DedalusDigglesPocketWatch · 02/12/2011 20:12

But I promise I will try reading some more of the Feminism topic. I did enjoy a 'Woman in History' thread a while back

toweraboveyou · 02/12/2011 20:14

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

rycooler · 02/12/2011 20:15

deck - I absolutely love your posts.

Whatmeworry · 02/12/2011 20:18

My post wasn't addressed to you WMW

My apologies, didn't realise I needed permission to post. But if you will make drive by shide-snipes at my posts, I shall of course respond.

There's been a backlash against feminism becasue we live in a male-dominated society that doesn't want feminism to succeed.

Ah, of course. Perish the thought that the extremists may have taken it too far....

babyhammock · 02/12/2011 20:28

Portofino You'll recognise this..
Rather dim workmate of abusive ex turned up at my house with ex expecting me to drop everything to make them lunch (this was when we were still together)... as obviiously the two of them were incapable of feeding themselves.
I had 6 month old DS, had been up most of the night and was outside doing some quite heavy building work while DS had his lunchtime nap... I hadn't stoped since 5am as usual and they had been mincing around somewhere else.

Yet I was expected to drop everything to attend to them as I'm female and that's essentially my purpose.... This was a regular thing and I would never in a million years expect someone to drop everything to make me dinner

I wanted to scream (and I know this sounds bad) that I earn more than you, I'm more intelligent than you, and I'm better at building than you (btw he was a labourer) so on what planet am I your slave... I obviously didn't but the fact remains that alot of men whether we like it or not fundamentally see women as lesser beings essentially for their convenience.

Yes they allow us to do 'their' jobs but the bottom line is we are the ones expected to make the coffee... says it all

Portofino · 02/12/2011 20:33

Yes - they assume. You just have to MAKE them unassume. My ex was a plumber. I learnt that you leave them FREE access to the kettle and get decent biscuits in. That is all it takes. You don't need to hover over the kettle or supply snacks....

thunderboltsandlightning · 02/12/2011 20:34

I didn't make a snide swipe at your post WMW, but you quoted my post as if it was directed to you. It wasn't so I just wanted to make it clear.

What's extreme is the epidemic of rape and violence that men commit against women across the world, day in day out. What's extreme is the way that men have stolen for themselves almost all the political, economic and social power in this world. What's extreme is the massive sex and porn industries purely designed so men can buy and sell women's bodies. Standing against those things and objecting to them is not extreme.

Dedalus claims I'm telling her to "know her place", what I actually did was express an opinion about the behaviour of non-feminists and pointed out that their claims that there's no need for feminism is a real problem. But apparently it's a one way street. Non-feminists can say any old rubbish about feminists, but if the criticism goes the other way apparently that's telling women to know their place.

It's between women and their own consciences whether they take up the feminist cause, but feminsits can certainly have an opinion about women who get in the way of it.

Portofino · 02/12/2011 20:37

When I say "them" I don't mean men, just whoever comes to your house, or place of work. You treat people in a friendly and respectful manner whether they are coming to service your boiler or to sell you some massively expensiive IT solution.

DedalusDigglesPocketWatch · 02/12/2011 20:40

I say it read as though that is what you were saying. Porto got the point across very well with her reference to the slaves in America. Then I could understand where you were coming from :)

flippinada · 02/12/2011 20:41

Good thread MrsClown

Babyhammock I think relationships like the one you describe above are more common than people would like to believe.

TheRealTillyMinto · 02/12/2011 21:14

Babyhamock love your recognition you were a better builder. I have built internal walls but want to learn bricklaying.

Esta3GG · 02/12/2011 21:15

Why do some women insist on referring to "non-feminists" as if they were some kind of unenlightened sub-species.

thunderboltsandlightning · 02/12/2011 21:19

The word non-feminist has no implication of "unenlightened sub-species". Where do you get that from Esta?

TheRealTillyMinto · 02/12/2011 21:24

MN feminism is not 100% my feminism but I think if you want more equality between men & women, get involved & do what you can to improve it.

thunderboltsandlightning · 02/12/2011 21:31

Let's see the words used to describe feminists on this thread:

"extremists"
"pompous, self-righteous zealot"
"opinionated, inflexible and shouty" and/or "hairy legged lesbian" and "man hater"

So who is it who is being hostile and aggressive? Not the feminists I don't think.

MoreBeta · 02/12/2011 21:32

MrsClown - you are rather guilty of generalising.

My DW does not call herself a feminist but she would tear a limb off anyone who says she is not equal to any man.

Likewise calling yourself a feminist does not make you a lesbian or a man hater or whatever.

I suppose there are non feminist man hating lesbians out there who believe in equality though.

babyhammock · 02/12/2011 21:37

flippinada absolutely, you only have to read the countless threads on here where the OP is complaining that since she's had children the H has started treating her like a domestic servant incapable of doing anything himself.

Incidently the last time this workmate came over, I didn't stop and make luuch and made a joke to the effect of 'look in the fridge'. It was all taken in good humour at the time but later my then P screamed at me that if I ever disrespected him like that again he put me in F**g hospital.

Tilly do it ... oooh to never have to rely on crappy builders again eh Grin

Esta3GG · 02/12/2011 21:37

Why is the term "non-feminist" even used?
What does it even mean?
It is not terminology used by the people who have it foisted upon them. People don't trot around calling themselves "non-feminists".
Most women have feminist sympathies to a greater or lesser degree.
Why this need to delineate and segregate all the time?
How does language like this make the women's movement more cohesive and inclusive?

babyhammock · 02/12/2011 21:42

I think most women consider themselves equal but unfortunately most men don't. Not when it really comes down to it, when you really did below the surface

It doesn't matter how clever, how capable, how amazing you are... most men feel women are essentially there for the man's benefit which makes them superior...

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