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Original poster

TO WONDER WHY WOMEN DONT MIND BEING 2ND CLASS CITIZENS

489 replies

MrsClown · 02/12/2011 11:10

I am a feminist. I am 52 years old with 4 grown up children. I shave my legs, paint my nails and wear make up. I am heterosexual and married. I just wondered, why do people assume that I have hairy legs and am a lesbian! Yes, some feminists are lesbians but we are a mixed bunch. Also, can anyone tell me why most women do not mind the fact that they cant walk around where they want to at night, and if they do and something happens they get part of the blame. Why dont women mind that the list of BBC Sports Personality is all male. Why dont women mind that other women are being bought and sold for sex and some are trafficked. If women do mind, why do they not at least attempt to do something about it. Why do most women ridicule me when I say I am a feminist, after all I am in good company (Annie Lennox, Helena Kennedy, Josie Long, Diane Abbott etc). Why do most women think it is ok for men of all ages (including elderly men) have the right to leer at a woman's body (who is probably young enough to be their grand daughter) every day in a 'newspaper'. I could go on. Is there no end to what women will put up with.

I am not being callous with my questions. I have been a feminist for about 40 years and things dont seem to be that much better for women, infact the objectification is much worse. I wondered if anyone would answer me to satisfy my curiosity. I have been ridiculed by so many women during discussions. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but it is usually the non fem who gets annoyed and starts getting upset. Infact, on many occasions men have agreed with me! I cant understand why a mother would not want her daughter to have the same rights as her son.

Sorry to go on but I hope someone will satisfy my curiosity.

OP posts:
TheRealTillyMinto · 02/12/2011 18:43

i consider myself a feminist but have been told i am a misogynist.

but overall I think it is a good thing that there are many versions of feminism.

Whatmeworry · 02/12/2011 18:43

Some responses:

And this is directed at you, wmw, and I am not being hostile or wishing to cause a ruck, just wanting to illustrate a point - but if all MNers knew of the FWR topic was you saying on various threads how the feminists are all hostile and rude and wanting to jump down your throat, they would be totally turned off and would never come on themselves to see what it's really like. That same dynamic plays out in the real world too

If it was just me saying it, it would have no effect and FMW would be a thriving chatroom with a far larger % of MN people on it.

So I think the idea that feminism has somehow "changed" is misleading. What's happened is that there has been a massive backlash against it, and now even the merest hint of the idea that women could see ourselves as a political interest group is come down very hard upon.

But why has there been a massive backlash? Why do so many women not want to identify with it?

And of course if you paint women as opinionated, shouty, hairly-legged man-haters, rather than simply thoughtful women interested in women's rights and people believe you, then your propaganda effort has succeeded

I didn't, I summarized what posters before had said, and pointed out that these were stereotyped perceptions in general use today.

thunderboltsandlightning · 02/12/2011 18:46

My post wasn't addressed to you WMW.

There's been a backlash against feminism becasue we live in a male-dominated society that doesn't want feminism to succeed.

TheRealTillyMinto · 02/12/2011 18:50

TB&L actually i think the backlash is partially because there are profits to be made from 'women like shopping' 'men like flash cars' but a risk that a fairer world will involve less profits.

thunderboltsandlightning · 02/12/2011 18:50

There have always been plenty of women who are happy with the status quo. If we'd listened to them in the past, women still wouldn't have the vote, have the educational opportunities we do, have the right to equal pay if not the reality of it, and still be tied to the kitchen sink 1950s housewife stylee.

It's not feminists who are the problem.

ouryve · 02/12/2011 19:01

MrsClown. I will discuss some "women's issues", as and when it suits me. I'll not be accused of not caring because there are other issues close to my heart I spend some time pondering. Some are serious and some downright frivolous. It's not up to you to hector me (or anybody else) to start shouting out for "women's issues" over and above everything else, tyvm.

In fact, I'd say that telling us what we should think, say and do makes me Hmm at the irony.

Portofino · 02/12/2011 19:02

To me reading the "extreme" opinions was a bit of an eye opener. It challenged my pre-conceptions and made me go away and read up a bit more. A bit like Siniscal's point about the "difference" between girls and boys. Up to a certain point there is NO discernible difference between the two, the way they are TREATED is so biased though that it no wonder there IS a difference by the time puberty hits. We accept the male and female behaviours as a biological "given" rather than society moulded.

I would not agree with Dittany in many ways - we fell out many times here. But I have the greatest respect for her - because her "extreme" view has really challenged the way I think about things. I always thought that I WAS treated equally to/by men. Yet I have come to realise that I am not. What I thought was innocent and harmless is, in fact, not. And maybe I am not an activist but I will bloody well pass this knowledge to my dd and challenge other people where as otherwise I might have "left it".

Portofino · 02/12/2011 19:06

Unfair just to mention Dittany though as there are many more who hold more "radical" views who have taught me a lot.

MarianneM · 02/12/2011 19:12

Only read the first page, but it is interesting how the OP immediately gets a kicking, or at least "I'm not a second class citizen", "You are generalising" or "Why don't you go somewhere else" type comments, for asking valid questions! I also ask, why do women continue to allow themselves treated as second class citizens which still happens ALL THE TIME? And why are so many WOMEN unwilling to have these questions asked? Why are women so defensive about this?

Portofino · 02/12/2011 19:12

I moved desks this week. I am now sat next to the "boss". He said to me "Oh did I tell you that xxx who you used to sit here used to go get me a coffee?" I replied "Oh no - you never told told me that. I'm a bit jealous that she had the time!" Smiling all the way..... The coffee machine is about 10m away - let the fecker get his own Grin

MarianneM · 02/12/2011 19:13

Unbelievable:

"MrsClown. I will discuss some "women's issues", as and when it suits me. I'll not be accused of not caring because there are other issues close to my heart I spend some time pondering. Some are serious and some downright frivolous. It's not up to you to hector me (or anybody else) to start shouting out for "women's issues" over and above everything else, tyvm.

In fact, I'd say that telling us what we should think, say and do makes me at the irony."

DedalusDigglesPocketWatch · 02/12/2011 19:17

Thunderbolts - your last post has made me quite angry, but I really can't explain eloquently enough why

Portofino · 02/12/2011 19:21

Dedalus - is it the thought that some other woman is thinking how to make your life better and you don't welcome the interference?

babyhammock · 02/12/2011 19:25

From Portofino
This I always thought that I WAS treated equally to/by men. Yet I have come to realise that I am not. What I thought was innocent and harmless is, in fact, not.

so true! It took a long time to realise it though

DedalusDigglesPocketWatch · 02/12/2011 19:26

Erm, no Grin I don't know if it is just the way it is worded. To me it read like the 'Women, know your place' except instead of a man sayig it, it is a woman saying, of course you are not happy, how can you possibly be, I know what is best iyswim?

Like I said, I am not particularly eloquent, and I struggle to to get the words out in the right way :o

Portofino · 02/12/2011 19:28

babyhammock - exactly! And it is just because it is so gentle and incidious that you don't really notice it.....It's in our upbringing, on the tv, in books, in films......you grow up like this without ever thinking about it. It's NORMAL. But it shouldn't be!

And it takes the extreme to shake it up and make you really THINK about that!

TheRealTillyMinto · 02/12/2011 19:30

Porto i made a coffee for a male candidate for the job in my company. he didnt thank me. i dont mind if didnt notice me place it on his desk, but he drank it so he obviously found it.

i think he would have noticed if a prospective male boss made him a coffee. also he looked at the other interviewer (male) when has gave techincal answers (i have a decade's more experience in the industry than the candidate so if he can hum it, i can play it....).

so he appeared to think making coffee was my job but nothing too tricky...lets just say he didnt get the job! Grin

sozzledchops · 02/12/2011 19:30

There are quite a few frothers on the feminist board who are quite vocal and I think put off a lot of folk who are interested in learning more about feminism. In fact they would rather have a closed board where only feminist discussions and views are allowed which they agree with and set the tone and agenda. I get the impression that people visit the board and feel unwelcome so just move on and any posters who disagree are branded as anti feminist, male apologists, misogynists or similar because these frother feminists could never actually be the reason that folk form a somewhat negative view of the FWR board and some of the feminists there.

TheRealTillyMinto · 02/12/2011 19:31

feminism makes you think! not just accept the status quo

MarianneM · 02/12/2011 19:38

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

DedalusDigglesPocketWatch · 02/12/2011 19:39

I like things that give me something to think about. I don't like being told which opinion to have.

I agree with Sozzled, but will add that there are a few topics on MN the same, you are made to feel unwelcome if you don't hold exactly the same views. I like that people have passion and strong opinions, but you can't get others to change their view to yours just because you are agressive towards them. Does that make any sense?

Portofino · 02/12/2011 19:43

Dedalus - I would make an analogy to "coloured people" in the US back in the last century. Some were treated very well by employers, part of the family when they worked in homes and much loved by the children etc. Some were beaten, killed and very much treated as dirt second class citizens.

There is no "one experience". But the civil rights movement came along and wanted to free them all, to give them equal rights etc. Exactly as it should be - and like feminism it has done A LOT but not completely got there.

I would argue that the people who worked for the decent employers would have much more fear about change (not wanting to challenge the status quo) than the people who remained practically enslaved, the ones who had nothing to lose...

Should the civil rights movement NOT have happened. Should Martin Luther King et al not have stood up for EVERYONE?

TheRealTillyMinto · 02/12/2011 19:50

in the civil rights movement there was conflict between Martin Luther King and Malcom X about the best way to move forwards.

no one owns feminism.

DeckTheHugeWithBoughsOfManatee · 02/12/2011 19:52

That's a false opposition, Marianne.

I'm delighted to have the vote and equal pay, and would be deeply humbled to have been able to meet the women who won it. But don't see why that means I should meekly submit to ill-mannered hectoring by some pompous, self-righteous zealot who did not win the vote or equal pay, but stands shrilling on the shoulders of those giantesses, seemingly for the borrowed satisfaction of speaking de haut en bas to us miserable, unenlightened masses.

A very, very small minority on the FWR board are like this. But by heaven they are vocal enough for me to want to avoid it altogether for the sake of my blood pressure.

sozzledchops · 02/12/2011 19:52

Marianne

I didn't say that I wasn't interested in feminism or that some posters put me off feminism but they did put me off the feminist board. I found some of the points raised very interesting and made me rethink some of my viewpoints.

You are sounding quite frothy yourself and are probably one of the reasons I rarely go there.