TO WONDER WHY WOMEN DONT MIND BEING 2ND CLASS CITIZENS

[MrsClown]

I am a feminist. I am 52 years old with 4 grown up children. I shave my legs, paint my nails and wear make up. I am heterosexual and married. I just wondered, why do people assume that I have hairy legs and am a lesbian! Yes, some feminists are lesbians but we are a mixed bunch. Also, can anyone tell me why most women do not mind the fact that they cant walk around where they want to at night, and if they do and something happens they get part of the blame. Why dont women mind that the list of BBC Sports Personality is all male. Why dont women mind that other women are being bought and sold for sex and some are trafficked. If women do mind, why do they not at least attempt to do something about it. Why do most women ridicule me when I say I am a feminist, after all I am in good company (Annie Lennox, Helena Kennedy, Josie Long, Diane Abbott etc). Why do most women think it is ok for men of all ages (including elderly men) have the right to leer at a woman's body (who is probably young enough to be their grand daughter) every day in a 'newspaper'. I could go on. Is there no end to what women will put up with.

I am not being callous with my questions. I have been a feminist for about 40 years and things dont seem to be that much better for women, infact the objectification is much worse. I wondered if anyone would answer me to satisfy my curiosity. I have been ridiculed by so many women during discussions. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but it is usually the non fem who gets annoyed and starts getting upset. Infact, on many occasions men have agreed with me! I cant understand why a mother would not want her daughter to have the same rights as her son.

Sorry to go on but I hope someone will satisfy my curiosity.

Though of course I believe that girls should want to be doctors too....just that high achieving careets and money are not the be all and end all of life and the thing that should be strived for.

rycooler That's exactly my point. As long as women don't find men who want to do low-paid or part-time jobs and take care of children 'sexy' men will continue to try and get to the top jobs. Otherwise, they believe (with some truth), they won't get laid. I'm told that getting laid is a major motivating factor for many men, so I can see why they might make the effort. On the other hand, it's relatively easy to get laid as a woman, whether or not you're rich and powerful.

Which gives another perspective on why more men seem to be in the high-paying 'top' positions. Maybe in many cases it's just that they want to have sex it more

is that innate though ry, or is it part of the same coin which says a Proper Man does this, and a Proper Woman does that?

Don't come out with a caveman argument which says women like providers - all the current research says women brought home most of the calories, so it's not for that reason!
A lot of what's considered sexy can change.

OTHM there are loads of feminists who think exactly that - I'm one of them. I'm not particularly career orientated, I value nurturing womens work, Definitely not alone on the FWR section (but not entirely unopposed either )

rycooler I like my men to be men what does that even mean?

If women had access to high paid jobs themselves and thus the lifestyle that goes with them, would they be so "attracted" (if that's even the case, where's the evidence?) to high-paid men?

What the truth is is that women's work is underpaid and undervalued, by the men who hold the purse strings.

I would have thought it was pregnancy and childbirth and small babies that kept women home close to camp - not that they were inferior at hunting. I read somewhere I think that grannies became important (evolutionally speaking) - if there was an older female there to look after the children it freed the mother to work too.....hence the reason that females have evolved to live much longer than their child bearing years.

thunderbolt - my dh was on a lower paid temp contract when I met him. I was earning my own living and owned my own house. How much money he earned never entered into it.

Exactly deckthehuge - all men want is a shag really, they couldn't care less what job you've got - but women have always got one eye on your body and the other one on your bank balance - they want good providers.

rycooler you are very like an old poster daftpunk who held similar views

That's so disrespectful to men, rycooler.

And they say it's the feminists who bash men!

What does it mean? - I can't remember why I said that tbh ( in reply to someone saying we're all the same, not male or female but individuals or something? ? )

Which women want good providers? Sez who?

Men can afford not to worry about women's economic potential, because generally they haven't been systematically excluded from the economic system because they are men.

There are a lot of women who want their partners to provide, there are lots who it is important that they earn their 'own' wage, you cannot deny either of those, but some of you are acting like you have never known such things as a woman wanting a 'manly' man who will provide, as though it is unheard of!

Women do have access to high-paying jobs. But thinking of the women I know who are bankers, lawyers and the like, they tend to marry men who are also bankers and lawyers. (Arguably also a major reason why London house prices are so ridiculous ) They don't, as a rule, 'marry down'. In a sense this actually leaves men with fewer choices than women: many women find a man who will support their wish to be p/t or a sahm, but women who are willing to support a man's desire to do the same are far rarer.

Even in those professions women will occupy the lower status, lower paid rungs of the ladder Manatee.

Women are systematically discriminated in male-dominated professions. It's not a secret.

I would think it takes a bit longer than 30 years to change that radically. There are still very strong cultural expectations as to what's considered attractive. 'Marrying up' is a very old aspiration from the days when it could literally be a life saver

In fact the only man I know who went p/t when his DDs were very small was able to do so mostly because he married an heiress and they live rent-free on the family estate. And even then, now that this man's DDs are a bit older the GPs and his DW are putting pressure on him to go forth, be a man and start earning properly again.

His (male) friends talk enviously about how they would have loved to have the same opportunity to be around for their own young DC but have to keep working long hours, as they had a duty to put food on the table, and so don't have that option.

Men run the workplace. If they wanted to change it they would.

TB&L i work in a male industry & yes there is discrimination but i dont think society sets women up to function well in a competitve environment.

Women are taught to be nice and kind, men are taught to be tough and active.

well why don't they, if it's not finance that's the issue? People will talk and put pressure on, sure, but if they want it they should fight for their right to do it. Obviously if finances are the issue, preferences have to take a back seat, but thats true for all would-be SAHPs.

It's certainly not feminists who are perpetuating these harmful stereotypes. Feminists will be their allies here.

Is it really true that woman don't have access to high paid jobs?

I can name three women I know who have high powered, high paid jobs. They have sacrificed for it though. Their family life is almost non-existent and they are "career women" in the same way that men have a career. Like men they start work at 8 in the morning and finish at 8 at night. I think a lot of women have romantic visions of what "equality" actually means. If there was real equality a woman would probably have to go back to work after having a baby so that the man could have his turn too, and I actually don't think women would like that. I think most women actually like to have the choice.

I think that a lot of people act like being a SAH is a secondary option and not something that is worth doing or important. I actually think the way people discuss being a SAH is crap. It should be a job that people enjoy and relish doing because it is actually the MOST important job in the world. What other job carries so much responsibility? If you mess it up enough your child will be screwed.

I'm a feminist but radical feminism annoys me because in the main they insult women more than they should do.
Reading the MN feminist board has become obvious and mundane there isn't any give or take there.
Hence I don't bother and I suspect it would put many other posters off posting there too.

dancing Certainly I find the narrative that depicts women as cowed, helpless, oppressed and so enmeshed in a seamless patriarchal ideology that they literally do not know their own minds and just go along with the propaganda is pretty insulting to women. This 'Men run everything' worldview also gives far more power to men than seems consistent with my experience. Neither giving all power away to men nor insulting women seem to me particularly empowering from a feminist perspective.

What bothers me about radical feminism as opposed to true feminism is that it doesn't want equality it wants superiority.
I feel listened to.
The world is open to my opinion.
Some radical feminists suggest i'm a handmaiden etc.
That's insulting to me.

Ah yes, the 'If you don't want to live in a separatist colony, plait your armpit hair and ululate along with the phases of the moon you must be a fifth columnist for the patriarchy' thing.

Very, very few people actually believe that, but the minority that do really grate.