to be upset at racism accusation due to dd1's comment in town.

[PrincessScrumpy]

dd1 is 3 and said loudly "look mummy that lady has a chocolate face." The woman heard and said " nice to see you training her to be racist already!" I was really shocked. dd didn't mean offence it was an observation that her skin colour was the same as chocolate. She's only met a few people from other races due to us living in the West Country but I've always explained skin colour in the same way as hair and eye colour being different.

She did say it once before about Tiger Woods on TV but I decided to ignore it and not make an issue. dd now is asking what racist is and I don't think a 3yo needs to know - they don't see colour as a issue or feel superior etc. Left me shaken and actally quite cross. I really think the lady was being oversensitive.

Janet, children stare everywhere...how does that make them racist?

I was being sarcastic. In Japan you can walk around Tokyo all day and not see another person who isn't Japanese. Children will naturally comment on anything different to what they're used to. IMO, completely innocent but still should be told it's wrong.

I don't think it is wrong to comment on differences. But the next natural question is, why are we different? Is one better than the other?

Very early on, kids pick up on subtle put-downs, so it is important not to use pejorative or loaded slang words. In my mum's day, 'gay' had one meaning and now it has another. You just have to accept that words change meaning and adjust your vocabulary and dc's accordingly.

Filofax, how have you dealt with racist abuse directed at you from adults and children?

Not that it makes any difference to this debate, but the main form of racism I have experienced has been when people have said very offensive or derogatory things about Arabs or people from the Middle East, not realising that I am one. In those situations I have calmly told people that I find what they are saying rude, ignorant and offensive. Without directly accusing people of being racist.

I spent some time in China when I left school. I found the way that children reacted to me very upsetting. Even more upsetting when their parents pulled the away from me. What small children say and do can be very hurtful. Just because they are little and almost certainly don't mean to be unkind doesn't mean that they shoudl be allowed to persist.

On the other hand sometimes adults are rude and unkind too, and it seems that from the OPs later reaction that there probably was some over reaction. However you need to look at why that woman was so upset, it is highly likely that she has been the object of unpleasant remarks from many people which has sensitized her. I would suspect that most of us are sensitive to something and the appropriate way to react to someone you upset is to apologise, regardless of whether you yourself think that they 'should' have been upset.

If a child says something inappropriate in public the best thing to do is to calmly tell them there and then not to do so again 'dd, that's a rather personal comment and you might upset someone' is a fairly good catch all.

Filofax, there is actually very little difference between your report of what you said and the OP's report of what the woman said to her. The only real difference is that the woman used the word 'racist', whereas you use the words "rude, ignorant and offensive". The implication in your words is that they are making a race/ ethnicity-based slur out of ignorance, etc.

The OP did not say that the black woman shouted at her, called her names, harassed her or did anything along those lines. As far as we know she spoke as calmly as you say you do, but (as you do) made her irritation clear. So why is it rude for her to challenge what she sees is offensive behaviour from an adult, but not rude when you do so? I think you're relying heavily on what you imagine the woman said and did.

No, there is a big difference between saying 'nice to see you training her to be racist already!" and saying 'I find that remark offensive.

One statement is sarcastic, critical of a persons parenting, and basically accusing them of being racist. The other is about how I feel about a remark that has just been made.

They are not the same at all.

I think you're being a bit disingenuous here. If someone makes jibes about Arabs and then you say you find that offensive, ignorant and rude, you are saying that they have said something racist. Directly or indirectly that is exactly what you are saying.

Yes, but I am saying it in a much more polite and indirect way. And I have never said it to complete strangers. I also wouldn't say it on the back of a comment made by a three year old when there is a good chance that it could be completely innocent. I would say it when there is no doubt at all that a racist comment has just been made.

Still very different.

So someone goes around insulting Arabs and you respond politely?? Far better to call a spade a spade (pardon the expression ). Racism should not be tolerated politely.

I am half british and half from a country in the med. When my older blond daughter was 3 her pre school class mate said look at my younger dark skinned/haired dd she is black like so and so and then named a boy in their class who is black. He was not being racist - he was just saying what he thought he saw. The other day my younger now 3 year old dd said to me "look my skin is dark and yours is light" again saying what she saw - although incorrectly as I was looking tanned and lovely .

I dont think the OP's child was being racist although it is not an acceptable thing to say IMO.
I also live in the West Country, I meet lots of people through my work and have had many people openly tell me they moved to the West Country to get away from ethinic minorities . It was mostly from people who had moved to the area (in my experience) who would say this stuff to me as a fellow "incomer" without realising one of my parents was not from the UK. This lady may have been subject to abuse on a regular basis.

OP, had I been the lady in question I probably would have raised my eyebrows and given you the side eye! I don't believe you child was being racist however, I would expect you to have a chat with your child about differences in people. Had the shoe been on the other foot I would be absolutely mortified and very apologetic. Everyone knows that 3 is the age when kids say things that can be deemed as hideously inappropriate but how you as the parent deals with it makes a huge difference.

Maya, I see what you are saying and half of me agrees, but it's not always that simple.

The time that stands out in my head the most is when a collegue in a voluntry organisation I do some work with, made a reaaly offensive comment about Arabs. I know she is fundamentally an ok person, and although I choose to spend as little time with her as possible, I will have to work with her again. It would have achieved nothing if I had come across rude and called her racist, even though I felt she was rude and being racist, she would have got defensive and focused her attention onto how rude I was being.

Instead, she seemed genuinely shocked at how awful she had sounded when it was pointed out to her, and I'm sure she thought about it afterwards and will not be using teh same words again. As far as I can tell, she felt very guilty, which has got to be better than her being defensive, and feeling like what she said wasn't bad enough to warrant me having a go, and therefore doing it again at some point.

Just my opinion.

flatbread

"... Why doesn't OP get dd dolls of different ethnicity? ..."

"... The point is the world has moved on. We live in a multicultural society. ..."

What on earth are you talking about? Are you serious? Do you really believe that is true?

well I am writing a fantasy book for young adults and I wanted black fantasy characters in my book. I have been descriptive about the colour of their skin, just as I have about the white characters

One of the themes I explore is white man's exploitation of indigenous cultures

But after reading this thread I will be taking my black characters out. As a white person I am far too paranoid about causing offence because I am categorically not racist. I just wanted to write nice descriptive language and make my characters real

boglach, that's unnecessary. If you're really unsure, why don't you just ask some black people what they think of the descriptions?

filofax - I too see what you mean, and in that context it clearly was the most effective thing to do. I also very much like the 'MN phrase': "That sounded incredibly offensive. Did you mean it that way?"

boglach, did you call any of them 'chocolate face?'

I didn't mean it that way, but thinking back, I did sound very Mumsnety at the time!

It was about the time I started on this site actually, it must have indoctrinated me quicker than I thought!

Oh! Misread, but got it now!

snort at tether!

at filofax

"... Why doesn't OP get dd dolls of different ethnicity? ..."
"... The point is the world has moved on. We live in a multicultural society. ..."

What on earth are you talking about? Are you serious? Do you really believe that is true?

Pendeen not sure I get your point.

Are you saying UK is not more ethnically diverse than 30 years ago when we were growing up?

Just look at the data from the latest census:
One third of London is non-white, I think, based on what I remember from the latest census.

Across England and Wales, the mixed-race population is up nearly 50% to almost a million for the first time ? up from 672,000 in 2001 to 986,600 in 2009. A third are mixed African-Caribbean and white, followed by Asian/white. The ONS says this is not a result of increasing birthrates but because "the population is mixing up more"

It is of benefit to OP to have her dd fit comfortably into this broader society.

Dolls like these www.kidslikeme.co.uk/dolls-c64.html

or books such as these www.ekmpowershop1.com/ekmps/shops/tangobooks/index.asp?function=displaycat&catid=34

can help if dd has very limited contact with diverse people in rl, so not sure what your issue is.

Pendeen and yet we all have tv with black people on it so in 2011 were ever we live our children should not be pointing at black people like zoo freaks and commenting on the chocolate people

boglach You could read books written in the same genre by minority authors and see how they use description. Or read through minority fantasy writers blogs, such as Karythia's where she discusses the issue at length. Or read through something like Racialicious which discusses the issues of race and popular culture and has many discussions of race in writing. Or the many books, articles, academic research on the topic. The information is out there, sadly few seem to engage with it out of either fear or a privileged sense that they can sit back and wait for the information to be given to them.

If you read your assertion that ".. we live in a multi cultural society .." you may just realise that you have made a fundamental error.

It is not an "issue" but a query.

Not everyone in the UK lives in a big city. Certainly most people in the UK do not live in London.

If you read the OP's post and my earlier comment you may just understand my puzzlement with your rather arrogant assumptions.

Nothing arrogant about what I said. We prepare children not just to live in the immediate sheltered environment, but in their broader society, because we don't know where they will end up.

I gave these books and dolls to my niece and she lives in a very homogeneous place. I just thought it was a normal part of socializing young children, to make them familiar and comfortable with diversity.