To have a very healthy respect for the 4 women I work with who have decided not to have children?

[Perriwinkle]

Just because I think that in a world where it is almost expected that women who are who either married or in settled relationships should have children, and that it's the logical next step to absolute fulfillment in life, they are not bowing to the pressure from either society or their families and are just pleasing themselves.

They are not focussed and driven career women either who are relentlessly climbing the ladder and have put family plans on the backburner, they just don't want children.

I don't know why but I just find it rather refreshing.

It is not an odd question at all Trills.

AIBU to notice that I have a respect for the women in the office who have said that they have consciously chosen not to have children that I do not seem to have for a woman in the office who announces that she is pregnant?

I think it's interesting...

Maybe it's because I'm programmed to expect women to have children and that's why it's no big deal to hear that they're pregnant but it is to hear a woman say she doesn't want them. I don't know. I've already said I don't know what to make of it myself and so was just wondering what others made of it.

Both sets of women are simply exercising a choice I realise that but perhaps the choice not to have children (when there is nothing stopping them from having them) seems a bit more noteworthy. It's also quite a choice to make because it immediately marks them out as different (and some as far as some people are concerned even odd) as most people assume (as many here have done) that if you don't want children it is more likely to be because you can't and you're simply hiding that by saying you don't want them.

Some of the comments here show the extent to which society expects women to become mothers.

Maybe it's all to profound for some people to gasp and that's why they think it's daft.

. Im clearly daft!

It's an interesting discussion to have, but I'm not really sure where reasonableness or unreasonableness comes into it.

It's also interesting that when it was suggested that some women have children not as an active choice but because it's what you do a lot of people felt the need to defend their choice to have children and say that that wasn't how it was for them.

Kitya you said in an earlier post:

"what I really hate is when people ask me if I have children and I say no without fail, they say oh well its still not too late!!! everytime, even yesterday at the hairdressers. Ive never, ever replied that its because I never wanted them as that would be a lie. I'd like to see their reactions if I did though."

And that's the crux of what I'm getting at here. You say you'd like to see people's reactions if you told them that the reason you don't have children is because you don't want them. Well, the women I work with have said just that and my reaction is to repect them for that choice.

I respect them for their choice in a way that I don't seem to respect women who decide to have them. That's what I find interesting. It's not daft and nor are you.

My dear (not) Ma used to bang on about childless women being "selfish". At the same time, she was knocking seven bells out of me and tellling me my fortune. When I got married I thought I'd have children because "doesn't everybody?". Several years down the line I realised that a) I'd married the wrong man and b) I just plain bloody didn't want any children and c) probably shouldn't have them anyway.

I have bipolar and I suspect my dear Ma did too. I didn't know I had it when debating whether to have children or not, but I knew that with a history of what I thought was unipolar depression I was a shoo-in for PND or worse, puerpural psychosis. Had I really wanted children I would have risked it, but the thought of motherhood scared me shitless for that and other reasons. ExH was ambivalent about being a father, and as he was already wriggling out of doing anything round the house and reserved the right to piss off out of it whenever he chose, I knew he wouldn't change and I'd be stuck at home with a child I probably didn't want in the first place. Recipe for disaster, anyone? Add to that the fact that I never learned how to mother because my mother was a cruel, sadistic abuser - repetition compulsion, anyone?

I have never regretted my decision and while of childbearing age resented it when people tried to get me to change my mind - I even swore at my Dad for doing that, after which he accepted that I wasn't going to miraculously embrace motherhood. And once a woman who was considerably older than me assured me that "you are going to be a very lonely old lady." I snapped back with "well if I am, I won't be able to come and cry to you, will I? Because you'll be DEAD." Harsh, I know but by then I was sick of the whole thing.

People upthread who have eulogised about how wonderful motherhood is have annoyed me a bit. Wonderful for them, yes and I'm glad for them, but it's not the only way to live your life. I don't hate children, quite the reverse, but motherhood was not for me.

Oh - forgot to say that dear Ma would have swooped on me and taken over, especially if I had a boy (she didn't like girls and referred to my exH as "son number two"). She was already sticking her oar, not to mention her sticky beak, into our marriage, letting herself into our house and redoing the housework then leaving a snarky note about how useless I was. More fool me for letting her, but I was afraid of her and exH didn't like confrontation so she got away with it

Well, I'm one of those who had children because after getting married it was the next thing to do. I wasn't desperate to have children, I wasn't bothered either way but leaning towards not having any. It was DH who was very sure he did want children. So I went along with it, blindly and thoughtlessly.

Having my first DC was like triggering an unexploded bomb that had been quietly laying dormant inside me. Like Rufus, I had a terrible mother, an awful abusive childhood. But I had none of Rufus's insight or self awareness, and having my first DC meant I got a very rude awakening to myself and my huge unresolved issues.

It has undoubtedly been the hardest thing I have ever done in my life and if I'm honest at times I have regretted having DC's because facing up to my own past has been so hard and painful. Perhaps if I hadn't had DC's I would have lived the rest of my life in ignorant bliss.

But I'm starting now to see a few glimpses of light at the end of the long long tunnel I was thrown into and am so glad I had my gorgeous DC's. I have grown so much because of them, in a way that would have been impossible otherwise, and despite the growing pains, I am becoming a whole person instead of the mere shell I now realise I was before DC's.

i have relatives that have chosen not to have children and the people most upset by this was their parents as they would not get grandchildren. particularly one who was an only child and decided not for her. at family moments like christmas i look at them and envy how they go away on holiday lots have big homes and look like house of fraser adverts. but then i have cuddles from the pudgy arms of two people i made who love me because i can make anything out of toilet rolls. so not having kids fine if you chose it but i chose differently and both choices are fine.

I am in my mid(ish)-thirties and have several female friends around the same age who I don't think will have children. I can totally see why you'd not want to have any, and I do agree with MotherInferior that having small children does somewhat limit your options. I think I've got to accept that I'm unlikely to ever scale the seven summits now.

I have a son, and whilst I absolutely adore him, I don't think my life would be "worse" if I hadn't got him. It would just be different.

I don't think all women do naturally feel a maternal urge to have children, all this angst, worry and over thinking is fairly new now we are able to control our fertility and we are allowed to live our lives as we please without being under the wing of a man whether it is your husband or father. In the past it was much more simple, you married at a young age and had sex and fell pregnant, usually no matter how you felt about it. Those women weren't all waiting for their maternal instincts to kick in it just happened and ensured the human race carried on.

I never really saw myself having children, never felt a overwhelming need to but got married and in my mid thirties fell pregnant. It just happened for me without having to think about it or I might still be childless, and so glad that it did.

Strange OP. I couldn't really care less who wants, has, doesn't have children.

Very strange - I hope your respect is genuine and doesn't just vanish when someone's needed to work the shitty shifts and it's assumed the childless brigade will do so happily. Being cynical - I just wonder on that one because all the lip service about respecting women who make that choice seems to vanish when there's a chance to fob some shitty aspects of work off onto them in the name of "family friendly".

From experience - lots of people having problems hide the issues very very very well. It's not something many people tend to discuss - cos you get twuntish comments like suggestions about "are you sure you're doing it right" (shit no you mean it doesn't go in my ear?!) or "inspiring" stories about someone's long lost Auntie Ethel who was told they could never have children and then got to the age of 60, went in for a hip replacement and came out with triplets or the sort - and you're stood there smiling sweetly while wanting to scream that it's not at all relevant to your particular set of internal plumbing circumstances but you're expected to act all grateful for this crumb of hope thrown to you by one of the priviledged ones... or other assorted examples anyone who's had problems can offer... so quite often it's easier just to smile, say "no, we've chosen that we won't have kids" and shut the conversation dead.

And the smug mummy "oh you'll change your mind" thing has always annoyed me - it shows an utter utter lack of empathy and lack of respect for another person's life choices. Would it be ok to turn around to a parent and tell them they'll regret having their kids one day - nope - so why is it deemed acceptable to do the reverse? Why is it at all acceptable to pry into what is essentially the sex lives of the childless anyway?

I do have more respect for women who've made an informed decision to go one way or the other with things rather than those who've just drifted into getting pregnant though because I wish more people would bloody think through bringing another person into the world than just doing it because they ended up pregnant one night.

everyone has the right to make their own choice

People make tactless comments about having babies to everyone, people with none, one, more than two, when you are getting on a bit, it's not particularly unusual to childless women.

I don't think it's that unusual now really- I know several women/men who have either decided they definitely don't want children (for 'lifestyle' reasons, or they don't want to recreate their childhoods) or just haven't had them and aren't that fussed about it (relationships break up, no partner). If they are close friends, we have probably discussed children, but otherwise I don't find this that remarkable or something I have to 'respect' more than having children (what am I respecting them for?) It's not courageous to not have children any more than it is courageous to have them in a society which doesn't especially like children.

Why are all these people without children logging onto mumsnet? I know it's permissible, but haven't they more important things to do, like cleaning their large houses or booking their next exotic holiday or furthering their important careers?

"you'll change your mind" comes from people who have Changed their minds usually.

I changed my mind - but I'd never dream of telling someone else that, because I did, they're honour-bound to. If they do, then they do, if they don't, then they don't - it's none of my business.

For a long time I didn't want kids because none of the women in my family have made particularly good mothers - there's a whole chain of fucked up mother-daughter (particularly) relationships across the generations. I only changed when I met my husband and got to realise what a stable family was like - as it was, life had different plans with fertility and miscarriages and it's taken 7 years to get remotely near it all (still not sure this one's a sticky).

I've had the "you'll change your mind"s, I've had the guilt trips from nosey relatives, I've had the being judged because of my reproductive status, I've had the sneers, the insensitive remarks when going through fertility problems - and I've come to the conclusion that what's going on in anyone's uterus/vagina/bedroom/house/life is their own business and not anyone else's.

Scholes,

I log onto Mumsnet because it really is the wittiest site on the web. And I am always dead embarassed I don't have a big house or high flying career. Or a tidy house.

I work with a girl who is desperate to have children- unfortunately this manifests as telling people with children 'No offence but I'd never do it that way'. She told my colleague when we were talking about childcare. 'I'm not being rude but when I have children, I could never leave them with a stranger.'
I find it amusing. Either she'll be the first mother to do it all perfectly- or she'll learn the hard way....

Weird that I've never had that conversation. I've never asked do you/will you have children....I couldn't care less. In my mind, my children are the most beautiful, precious and wonderful so whether anyone else bothers is none of my concern. Someone would have to go out of their way to tell me they never want children.

I log onto mumsnet because i am a stepmother. I dont have kids "of my own" but do have stepchildren and it's an invaluable resource.
I am in my 40s, have never wanted children and know lots of people my age who are in a similar position. Maybe it's because we are like-minded that we know eachother and hang out together. Many of them are work-colleagues/friends.

A friend of mine who is a mum challenged me to name 10 women I know personally in their 40s who dont have children, as she didnt believe there were that many of us! I could reel off more than 10 names very easily. I think in this day and age of choice, it's likely to become more and more common.

I don't think I would have ever wanted children if it hadn't just happened for us. I'm reading a few posts here and must admit, I never felt broody for a first child. I don't like to say it, but DD was a mistake, albeit the most wonderful mistake ever. My broodiness only started after she was born, and she was about 1 years old.

So maybe these women don't know they want children? You never know what you're missing until you have it.

I too don't see it as any kind of achievement - tbh I have far more respect for women who do choose to have kids as they have a really hard job! Of course people's choices should be respected. If people don't want kids then that's fine, up to them, although with some I know, they love to give you their 'fantasy' opinion on how children should be raised even though they would not want to put any time, effort or patience into doing so themselves

Go to a website called The Childfree Life. It is the opposite of Mumsnet and makes great reading, some very, very funny posters.

Do you really want to know what the childfree by choice really think of your little angels despite what they say to your face?

Thanks for the tip Bloodred, I will definitely check out that website. If it's anything like some of the other childfree websites I've looked at though, be warned - some posters say absolutely vile things about parents and children. I don't think there's anything at all wrong with not liking children but some of my fellow childfree folks can be downright nasty about it. Most of us are lovely though!

OP in which way is "just pleasing yourself" (as you say) an achievemnet worthy of respect?

Fine for them, but extra kudos???