To have a very healthy respect for the 4 women I work with who have decided not to have children?

[Perriwinkle]

Just because I think that in a world where it is almost expected that women who are who either married or in settled relationships should have children, and that it's the logical next step to absolute fulfillment in life, they are not bowing to the pressure from either society or their families and are just pleasing themselves.

They are not focussed and driven career women either who are relentlessly climbing the ladder and have put family plans on the backburner, they just don't want children.

I don't know why but I just find it rather refreshing.

Again, I totally agree mjlovesscareypant. You've summed up exactly how my child makes me feel. Life without him wouldn't be worth living.

I just think that women are expected to feel that maternal urge and to want to feel like you have described - like they are bred to produce and nurture. I think that the pressure is that a woman is somehow not wired properly if she doesn't want to have children.

The respect I have for these women is to go with their gut feelings to not want to have children and not caring if society doesn't see them as "proper" women who do what "proper" women are supposed to do.

I wouldn't want to be them for all the tea in china but in many ways I am more conscious of the respect I have for their choice to not conform than I would be of a woman who decides to go with the societal flow and have children.

Make of that what you will. I'm not even sure I know what to make of it which is probably why it makes for an interesting discussion.

telling someone to "jog on" because the ask you a question of bloody rude op

It was rude of her to be so deliberately obtuse in the first place. Had she not been rude I would not have been rude in response.

My sentiment, exactly, Endoplasmic Reticulum.

I'm slightly baffled by posters on this thread who seem to be justifying having had children. This is a forum for mothers - really no need to justify being one!!

Personally, I wish it were more socially acceptable for a) people (especially women) to be single and b) people not to want children.

But I fear biology and hormones may have as much to do with partnership and subsequent babies being the default position as social conditioning. We'd be fighting millions of years of evolutionary pressure by choosing not to have children.

I think a lot of people focus on the financial and time commitment of having children and not on the emotional commitment which is enormous. It's a real bitter sweet thing.

Children can bring you so much joy but the flip side of that is that once you have a child you have all the worries that they bring with them; the worry of losing them, bad things happening to them, them not being happy and so on and that will never leave you, no matter how old they are.

I think that in some ways the one thing I do envy people who do not have children is not having that sort of emotional burden which is all part and parcel of parenthood.

All women without children get used to the intrusive and patronising questions from other people about their breeding intentions - it goes with the territory. And of course it's rude, and of course it can be very painful when struggling with infertility but that doesn't stop people asking (unfortunately).

I'm not surprised at all by the figures in your workplace. The last ones I saw were that around 20% of women are now childless - that's a significant minority. As for the healthy respect, I'd be inclined to believe that (this is not aimed directly at you, OP, but is more of a general point) if childless women could:-

• stop being asked about their family intentions
• On answering truthfully, stop being told "You'll change your mind"
• Be treated with respect in the workplace and not be assumed to be delighted to cover the unsocial shifts, Christmas working, extra work for your maternity leave etc.
• Support us when we also ask for flexible working.

I think that many childless women also get fed up when hearing that any feminist/pro women measure is ALWAYS defined in its effect on working mums. I find Womans Hour particularly bad at this, and politicians always talk about "hard working families" [hhmm] as if hard working single people or couples don't exist.

Dont get me started on working at Chistmas!! why do people assume that a single, childless woman will want New Year off? its the loneliest time of the year. Give me Christmas with my family/friends anyday.

I once had the Auntie of a friend threaten to beat me up because I told her I didn't want children . She took this as a judgement (on her 4 horrible little terrors), it wasn't, although the fact her 6 yo son had took a hammer to a door earlier in the night when we were babysitting may have sealed it.

As life has it, I now have 3 little terrors of my own, although none have wielded a hammer yet.

I respect anyone who decides to not have children and vice versa, there is fault on both sides, those smug people who insist being a parent is the be all and end all and nothing in life comes close yada yada .

On the other side there is the whiny arsed what about meeeee, when it comes to social policy, why can't I get 9 months off for shagging, I don't get this, I don't get that, my taxes, my taxes, breeders, consumers blah blah .

I must admit I was mostly thinking of Matthew Wright when writing the last bit .

YANBU. Of course women are supposed to become mums unless we are single mums in which case we are vilified.. In short; we cannot wine. Being a mum is fucking tough but wonderful; not for everyone though and should not be seen as defining womenhood.

cannot win sorry!

'Jog on' is such an obtuse phrase itself in this context.

I am 30 and am ambivalent about having children and a partner. To be honest, I don't really see how kids would enhance my life and friends that have had children always seem shattered and frazzled and never do anything interesting

I love kids and do appreciate the joy there must be in raising themk but overwhelmingly I think I have a very full life and don't want to restrict it with children.

Scuttlebutter and kitya it is not just women without children who are assumed to be for Christmas, unsocial shifts, and help with others' emergencies, and generally not to have any private life that need be of concern.

There's another large sector to whom that happens and the clue is in my nickname.

And in our case it sometimes happens when we have young children!

I have something a bit like this, but in reverse.

DH and I decided to have children young, not really young, but we're at a stage when only 2 other of my friends have kids.

The amount of comments I get about 'ruining' my 20s and 'wasting' my precious time with being pregnant, bfing, running around after my toddler when I could be partying, going on holidays, buying sports cars is crazy.

Basically, no one can force these women in the OPs work to have kids. If they want them and are physically able to then they might have them at some time. But no one can make that choice for them.

Same goes for me: I wanted kids, was able to, so did. No amount of comments from well-meaning but rude friends would coax me to not do it.

Some people are wanting kids, some don't, same as with any life choices, different people will make different choices.

Four Women In Choosing Not To Procreate Shocker! Read all abaaaaahhht it!

Listen up OP, some women want kids, some don't. Some change their minds about having children, some don't.

And by the way, I didn't have kids to 'go with the social flow'?!? I had kids because I wanted them.

I'd understand it more if you were banging on about saving the overpopulated planet, but this is just drivel.

I also work with four women who don't want children- which some people find weird because we actually work with children. OTOH I have more awareness of what having a child actually entails and also sadly know that even with the best will in the world things don't always go right.

Someone said to me the other day 'It's not too late you know' and I blurted out 'Christ! I hope it is!'. [hsmile]

I worked with two women who didn't want and hadn't had children, and know quite a lot more. Good on them - they get the kudos for organising their lives how they want in the face of convention and not for 'not having children', which would be a weird sort of achievement.

I confess I have envied them usually when there's a tantrum on the go.

'Someone said to me the other day 'It's not too late you know' and I blurted out 'Christ! I hope it is!'

I'm stealing borrowing this line Mardy, I hope you don't mind!

OP, you sound like a lovely supportive person and I'm sure your 4 colleagues actually find your attitude refreshing. As a childfree woman myself, I can guarantee that they have had many many rude, offensive, patronising comments from people (lots of examples on this thread actually!) who know their situation. I had a work colleague of mine tell me she hoped I would get pregnant one day and then I would just 'have to get on with it'. and OMG at the story upthread about getting physically threatened! I find it really bizarre that someone would feel so strongly about a decision someone else hs made that affects them not a jot - speaks volumes about their own insecurity I think.
Good thread

I pass no judgement on people for wanting or not wanting children. Different strokes. I don't really see that it is an achievement, though. It's just an individual life choice, surely?

My sister didn't have children and is now in her late 50's , so definitely past the age of changing her mind. She kept saying she could have children later if she wanted to, but once she got into her late 30's she thought she'd left it too late and went very quiet about the whole subject.

She has a horror of hospitals and my youngest sister was born with a cleft palate and a hare lip, which freaked her out slightly. Add to the mix that her husband really didn't want children and I think her fate was sealed.

She had the weirdest reactions when I had my 4 miscarriages. She said to me at the time that she could have had children but chose not to and here I was desparate for a child and couldn't have one. She felt guilty, which I told her was ridiculous. I didn't mention that she might not have been able to have them. I think we all assume it's going to be easy to have kids, til we start trying.

She's aged better than any of my other sisters, though, so the life choice obviously has it's advantages. And they have holidays all the time. She's retired this year and she's never really had any money worries. Her husband is quite controlling though, so I don't envy her her life at all. He bought her the biggest pile of junk for a car I've ever seen and that put my sister off driving. She'd worked all her life and could easily have afforded something decent, but he wouldn't let her. That makes me think that perhaps her 'choice' was less of a choice than it could have been.

I know they do find my attitude refreshing, and coming from a woman with children, they appreciate hearing honestly that in many ways having children is not all it's cracked up to be, rather than the smug knowing comments that come from many parents that "it's a shame", you don't know what you're missing and oh, don't worry, you may feel like that now but you'll change your mind - just give it time".

Oh, and I'm working over Christmas too because my DH is off work and available for childcaring!!

This is a very odd question.

Are you really asking if you are being unreasonable?

I don't rally understand the question at all. How could anyone say "yes, you are being unreasonable, you should not respect these women"?

Because 'proper' women have children. Good women. Women who Know Their Place, which is essentially procreative.

Oh no, I forgot, I'm the only person who felt a pressure to prove my essential Womanliness in reproducing, for everyone else it was a free choice taken quite independently....