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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Hubby bathing baby

163 replies

Gonzo33 · 25/10/2011 05:38

Ever since our dd was born my husband has refused to bathe her. He loves the bones of her, and does absolutely everything else for her but he won't bathe her (unless I am not home) because he is frightened of being accused of being a paedophile. Fwiw one of his friends was accused in the not too distant past (not guilty I hasten to add - just malicious rumour).

AIBU to think it is a sad society we live in when a child's own father feels that way?

OP posts:
fastweb · 26/10/2011 06:36

The above two posts demonstrate one mother, not some member of the public, expressing doubts, but not accusing.

One knobhead screaming insults, where the police got involved, but twas not the person being called a peodo in trouble with the thin blue line.

One situation that could have been misconstrued, but was not

If anything the examples being brought forth to justify the OPs fear actively undermine it.

He isn't afraid his wife will make accusations.

He isn't a SAHD who is left exposed to peoples' negative reactions to him challenging gender roles.

He is risking out certain perfectly normal physical contact with his daughter because he feels that contact with her has the potential to stimulate somebody outside their home into accusing him of being a peado and this will be taken seriously and blight their lives.

On the basis that this is what happened to a freind of his, as far as the OP knows.

That is niether justifiable, nor healthy.

Trying to imply it is, with examples that underline that perhaps

a) people are NOT so likely to leap into miscontruing with gusto.

b) a howl that you are a peodo from some random, who takes exception to your not being a distant victorian father, does NOT result in authorities taking action against you, but in fact the random is the one risking being on the wrong side of the law.

The above is not that different from the people who desperatly try to whip up peado hysteria, with doom laden warnings of danger at every turn, that upon examination do not prove the dire situation they were trying to establish as FACT! and DA TROOF!

Tortoiseinadarkspell · 26/10/2011 07:27

It's not justifiable nor healthy, no. But I think it's important to listen to the men on this thread, who are all saying that there is a ... something there, a feeling that they have to be careful. I mean, it's clearly not a case of the OP's husband just skipping out on a parental duty, he's a really hands-on father who does unpleasant tasks like nappy changing, it makes no sense that he'd flat out refuse bath time because of laziness or whatever.

My husband has a little bit of this as well. He does do baths, and do half of everything, but he has said before that he feels a bit uncomfortable about performing very intimate acts - like a very thorough cleaning after a horrible poo, that sort of thing. He does it, because he loves her and it needs to be done, but there is a hesitation there. Does he think he'll be accused of something? No, and nor does he harbour actual inappropriate reactions that he's scared of. It's just that he finds it harder than I do to overcome the usual taboos about handling someone else's body intimately, I suppose.

Now, I don't know if that's a gender thing, or if it's about the fact that I gave birth to her and therefore the physical bond preceded knowing her as a person, or what. We're both fairly modest types, but I have no issue at all with DD (3) seeing/commenting on my naked body, whereas he hates to let her in the bathroom when he's showering now that she's fully verbal because her gleeful "Daddy, you have a sticking-out bit" embarrasses him so much.

Maybe part of it is this feeling, from good men, that men are seen as sexual predators unless proven wrong*, or paedophilia-phobia, too. I don't think it's all of it, by any means, though. I do think it's worth respecting that the feelings are valid.

*To which my general response is oh bugger off with your false victim identity, frankly

fastweb · 26/10/2011 08:19

something there, a feeling that they have to be careful

Of course there is.

For thousands of years humans perpetuated the myth that caring for children came naturally to women, and not to men. So men shouldn't do it.

Both men and women struggle consquently with the learning curve that comes with caring for small breakable tiny humans.

Women put their unease down to not being a proper/natural mother.

Men used to put it down to being a role they were not naturally adapted to and worry thst they would fuck it up and hurt/fail to care for properly the child.

Now there is a considerable push to tie this unease to perversion.

Which we need to robustly combat if we want to move forward and allow men the same holistic connection to children that has always been permited for women.

For the sake of our sons and daughters, as children and future parents themselves.

Maybe what we need to do is less listening to men who have unjustifiable concerns and withdraw and ask them instead to stop making a meal out of their feelings, start thinking and open their ears to the bigger picture.

Becuase they cannot be the priority in this equation.

A child growing up without a fog of perversion colouring their interaction with their parents has to be the priority.

So maybe it is the men who need to listen to what the unintended consequences of their mindset could be, rather than making even more room for them to decend further into an unhealthy mentality.

I'm not a proponant for martydom on the alter of parenthood. I think it is far healthier for kids to know that parents are actually human beings too, with fiobles, needs, want and hurtability.

However there are contexts in which the parent needs to set themselves aside as much as poss, do their risk assessment from more than a just a "personal sensation angle", and manage to conclude that for all thier disquiet it is something they have to work through rather than succumb to, for the sake of their child.

As it stands, when you look at the groups who promote the therory that men are at a hugely elevated risk of false accusations these days, people who trot out examples that only support the argument if you skim the most superfically, the people who claim fear of reprisals for just doing normal parental stuff....it's all about framing the adult as THE victim (potential or actual).

It's not so much thst the child is an afterthought as a victim (potential or actual).

They simply don't get a mention at all.

Read back the thread, much is made of the fall out to the parent who has been accused/could be accused.

No a sausage about the consequences for the child in either of those scenarios.

They appear to be more of a prop in the immagined (or actual) scenarios, rather than an actual human being with just as much, if not more, to lose.

Which speaks volumes about the priorites that inform the over egged risk assessment.

Whatmeworry · 26/10/2011 08:46

we need to robustly combat if we want to move forward and allow men the same holistic connection to children that has always been Permitted to women

Then it's the law that needs to be robustly combatted - If the law essentially enshrines the view that they are all potential child abusers until proven not to be, it's insane to think that won't get in the way of them having a "holistic connection to children".

ionysis · 26/10/2011 09:00

Fastweb, why are you talking about a child growing up in an atmosphere of parental "hands off"??

Do you seriously think a child is going to be damaged in some way by NOT having her father bathe her, be naked around her or clean out her fluff? Are those things a vital part of parent child bonding???

KatAndKit · 26/10/2011 09:11

They are a normal part of child care and hygiene though aren't they?
I fail to see why there is anything wrong with either a father or a mother bathing a little baby of either sex. Or any child below the age of about seven or eight for that matter. Some adults don't want to parade about the house naked in front of their family, that's fine. But thinking that a man can't wash a girl baby because it could be considered abusive is absolutely nuts.

fastweb · 26/10/2011 09:33

Then it's the law that needs to be robustly combatted - If the law essentially enshrines the view that they are all potential child abusers until proven not to be

Quote me the law that says that and I'll get back to you as to wether I agree with your conclusion that we need to change said law or not.

Do you seriously think a child is going to be damaged in some way by NOT having her father bathe her, be naked around her or clean out her fluff? Are those things a vital part of parent child bonding???

Do you seriously think my views are based on the importance of the task being performed for its own sake, given that I have written so much about the potential negative fall out of the mindset that informs the withdrawal?

For this reason i'd not be expressing the same opinions if the OPs husband didn't want to do bathtime cos he had a bad back and the bending down required caused him pain and put the baby at risk due to a distracted and impaired adult trying to perform a task when they were clearly not in a postion to do so.

ionysis · 26/10/2011 09:40

But surely it is how the mindset is manifested which matters. If this "fear" of pedophile acusations prevents a man from interacting reasonably and affectionately with his children on a NORMAL spectrum of parenting then I agree with you 100% that it is unhealthy. But I think many men have this lurking unease at the back of their minds which makes them wary and cautious iof getting into potentially ambiguous situations but does NOT prohibit them from having an entirely appripriate and loving relationship with their child.

I would have no problem with my husband not feeling comfortable with exposing his genitals in front of the kids or not wanting to intimately handle them when they were naked as long as he was affectionate, playful and loving with them when they had clothes on. Do you think the kids would even NOTICE or CARE that Mum does bathtimes and Dad does bed, or that Mum does nappies and dad does mealtimes?

KatAndKit · 26/10/2011 09:52

Why should mum get all the "shit" jobs (quite literally in this case) while dad does all the playtimes.

There is no law against a father bathing his daughter or changing her nappy. He is not going to get arrested by social services for doing this. It is not a criminal offense and the fathers of most girl babies I know manage to wash their own children and change their nappies as and when required without making a big deal out of it. There is nothing either perverse or sexual about either of those tasks.

I certainly will have a problem if, when my baby is born, my partner thinks all the dirty jobs should fall to me if the baby is a girl. The kids might not notice but the dad will certainly missing out if he has a fear of seeing his own baby naked for fear of being called a paedophile.

I can understand adults not wanting to go round exposing their genitals to their children. That is a bit different although I don't think it should be a problem if the child is a baby though. But once you become an adult you have developed a sense of modesty about even family members seeing that part of your body and keeping your privacy is no big deal really. Wearing swimming trunks in the bath with a baby is taking it a bit too far if you ask me, but not having children aged above toddler age see you in the buff is considered normal in our culture by a lot of people.

ionysis · 26/10/2011 09:54

And if both parents are happy for Mum to do baths and Dad bed etc. and the division of labour is approved and accepted by both parties concerned why should that be a problem to you?

BustyStClaire · 26/10/2011 09:58

When d2 was baby hubby was always worried about putting nappy cream on her bits, he would blob on & sort of of rub her legs together in a cycle fashion, it was funny really.

ionysis · 26/10/2011 09:58

"all the dirty jobs".... well yes, if my husband refused to clean up sick or change a wet cot sheet or get up in the night or anything which might be at the shittier end of childcare fair enough. But that is completely off-topic.

And I don't see how bath time could possibly be seen as a "dirty job".

Where has anyone said anything about "fear of seeing his baby naked"? We have been talking about handling the genitals / body of your naked child in CERTAIN SPECIFIC situations.

onagar · 26/10/2011 10:00

fastweb, You seem to be saying that we are lying to get out of doing a chore. I thought we were discussing it, but if you know that for sure I guess we should close the thread now.

I can only suggest that you read some of the posts on mumsnet. You may not have heard of it. It's a site full of (mostly) woman and you may find it useful to broaden your knowledge.

KatAndKit · 26/10/2011 10:03

Nobody ever says it is wrong for a mother to handle a little boy's genitals. i don't see why it would not be ok the other way around.

How other people divide up the jobs in their house is up to them. But to bring paedophilia into it as a reason for not washing a baby is ridiculous. There is nothing pervy about a man washing a baby of either sex. The baby has no ishoos about having the genitals washed and it is in no way harmful for a girl to have her genitals washed by her father when she is not old enough to do it for herself.

ScaredBear · 26/10/2011 10:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

fastweb · 26/10/2011 10:18

Do you think the kids would even NOTICE or CARE that Mum does bathtimes and Dad does bed, or that Mum does nappies and dad does mealtimes?

The mindset that informs the ring fencing is unlikely be apparent to the baby girl at this present moment (all bets off as she gets a little older).

But not so much the ten year old boy who is exposed to a household where the father is perpetuating the idea in word and deed that contact with his daughter must be ring fenced becuase she is a pedophillia flavoured loaded gun that could be turned on him, and the mother does not appear to see the need to eradicate his ecessive fear for the sake of the kids and/or the husband.

He is AFRAID of certain contact with his daughter becuase he FEARS the consequences of being accused of a huge, scary and utterly disgusting thing. How can those negative emotions not invade the home and realtionships IF they are as as real as claimed and are so strong that he cannot use rational thought and accurate risk assement to batter them back into proportion and bath his little girl?

Either it is real signficant fear of false accusation, or it is not.

If it is real and strong enough to impact his willingness to perform certain tasks it cannot be deemed invisible, irrelavant and just a wibble that couldn't possibly impact family life.

Anybody who has had a ten year old knows that as much as you try to keep things out of their hearing or view, they are perfectly caperble of picking up on things like parental fear, worry and distrust on an instinctive level as well as ear wigging. It's not unusal for them in their lack of bigger picture and just snippets/sensations of what is going on, to put 2+2 together and come up with 360. Over time it is not beyond the relms of possibility for that lad to start to view his little sister as a sexualised being in high contrast with his non sexualised self, and/or a threat to his family.

What is the point of people getting areated about the POTENTIAL fall out of too much CEBEEBIES and the POTENTIAL for an accidents making car seats a non negociable, if we are just going to shrug our shoulders and ignore the POTENTIAL fall out of a deeply unhealthy atmosphere and mindset within a family set up?

Kids are no more immune to unhealthy mindsets in the home than they are to other drivers ploughing into the back of the family car.

(I haven't disappered, have got to go teach and tame the house into submission, back later tonight)

Bubbaluv · 26/10/2011 10:32

I've been thinking about this thread and I've had a slight change of heart. I caught up with my sister and her daughter yesterday and it reminded me that I too, feel slightly uncomfortable changing my niece, especially if things are messy. Don't get me wrong, I do it, but I do feel slightly embarrased about it Hmm Silly I know.

I've got 2 boys and handled my fair share of penises in my time, but never had much to do with anyone's girlie bits other than my own. I don't have any fear of being accused of behaving inapproriately, but I guess I do understand that we can be effected by irrational reactions to handling genitals.

Whatmeworry · 26/10/2011 10:33

Quote me the law that says that and I'll get back to you as to wether I agree with your conclusion that we need to change said law or not

It's the impact on mindset that the law, and more critically its execution, is having...this is a reasonable summary of the criticism around these issues, and some of the impacts.

As I said upthread, I don't think OP's DH is being reasonable given the home situation, but I also do not think he is being irrational.

I do think people are in complete denial if they think this law and its execution does not have an insidious impact in poisoning men's relationships with children.

KatAndKit · 26/10/2011 10:38

The law about CRB checking has nothing to do with bathing your own baby. I have to be CRB checked every time I apply for a new job. As other people are entrusting their children into my care and I am a stranger to them, it is reasonable for the authorities to check that I do not have a criminal past. It is getting a bit much when everyone has to be vetted for the slightest thing.
But this has absolutely nothing to do with looking after your own kids. Most men I know do not think there is any thing paedo-ish about bathing a baby girl. I imagine it is a bit strange at first, as are many things about having a new baby. If mine turns out to be a boy I might feel strange about penis washing at the beginning. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with me actually doing it though.

It isn't so much the law that is at fault. It is the media paedo hysteria that thinks that any men who work with kids must be pervs. Stop reading the Sun and you will recover from this hysteria quite quickly. Most men are not child abusers. Bathing a baby is not abuse.

BoneyBackJefferson · 26/10/2011 10:58

there are airlines that will not sit an unaccompanied minor (male or female) next to a male who is traveling by himself.

To say thaty the OP's DP's fears are unfounded is just a little bit condesending.

Whatmeworry · 26/10/2011 11:05

Stop reading the Sun and you will recover from this hysteria quite quickly. Most men are not child abusers. Bathing a baby is not abuse

That link wasn't to the Sun (or even the Mail), if you had bothered to follow it.

And most men are indeed not abusers, but - if you had bothered to read the story I linked to - the insidious effect of this whole cocktail of laws, policies, CRB checking etc are creating an insidious atmosphere that is poisoning men's relationships with children.

KatAndKit · 26/10/2011 11:11

Look, it is silly that people think that everyone needs to be crb checked before they can play with a child. It is not unreasonable for people who are working with children to be crb checked. I don't think the authorities taking reasonable precautions is fostering some culture of suspicion. The majority of teachers are female and we all have enhanced crb checks. As we are entrusted with the care of other people's children and are in a position of responisbility.
Expecting someone to have a crb check before your kids and theirs are friends so you can be trusted to have your childs friends round for tea would be silly. Expecting childcare workers etc to be vetted is not silly.

Policies about a man being an unsafe seat neighbour on a plane are also bonkers.

My comment was not that your link was promoting hysteria. My comment was that certain red top papers are promoting hysteria.

None of this has anything whatsoever to do with parents washing their own children. There are no laws forbidding that. Or policies, or vetting procedures.

Tortoiseinadarkspell · 26/10/2011 11:33

Fastweb, I'm really appreciating your posts on this. I'm trying to get at the manifold layers of this issue, because I think it's a fear that is more widespread among men that is talked about. But I agree with you that it's got to be got past. I just don't think that the way to do that is to accuse the OP's husband, or the other men on here, of trying to get out of a chore, or 'the shit tasks' (which bathing is not! It's a lot more fun than cleaning up a puke-covered baby, for exampe). I realise that's not what you've done, but others have and I think it's unhelpful and dismissive.

I've been talking to DH about this this evening, actually (am in different timezone) and he said that it's at the back of his mind a LOT. If he takes DD into the male toilets and she comments on someone's 'sticky out bits' he thinks oh lord, is that man going to think I'm prematurely sexualising my daughter? And wonder why she knows about male genitalia and why has she seen it before anyway? And he does bathe her, but he's always conscious of her boundaries, etc. He says it's not from fear that I will someday turn against him and report him (because, frankly, if I were going to do the malicious false report thing I could do so even if he'd never bathed her, right?), but fear that somehow, unknowingly, he's touched her in a way which is entirely innocent and hygiene-related but then she remembers, twenty years down the track, as a bit wrong. And he thinks he would probably worry about that slightly less if she were a boy, although who knows.

windsorTides · 26/10/2011 11:49

Great posts fastweb.

It's really important that posters see the context of this, because it's yet another culture that has developed that demonises men, while simultaneously reinforces the ideology that women are responsible for the difficult aspects of childcare.

For decent men who want to be involved with every aspect of childcare, this culture is insulting but thankfully those with a modicum of intelligence conclude that it's based on myths and scare-mongering and that the infinitesimal risk of being accused of paedophilia is not going to get in the way of interactions with their own children.

For lazy men however, it is a convenient excuse and if they had baby boys, would probably find some other reason not to bathe them either.

CocoPopsAddict · 26/10/2011 12:29

Ok, to me this is so simple.

Your child is your child. Your sexual feelings have nothing to do with your child because they are your child (apart from how you created them, of course!).

So anyone who infers any paedophilic tendencies from a parent taking care of their child is the one with the problem.

My DH sometimes has a bath with DS (11mo). He is our child, we've never thought twice about it.