AIBU to have just realised that I have been sexual assaulted many times

[PippiLongBottom]

I had extremely large breasts as a young teen. I was a 30DD at 13 and my size 8 hour glass figure was very popular with the boys .

At 19 I had my breasts reduced on the NHS because my head was fucked.

It is only with many years of hindsight (I am 36) thanks to Mumsnet and a recently developed feminist perspective that I realise that all the 'incidents' that happened to me were sexual assaults/grooming and not my fault.

I have fb'd one of the cuntslprits tonight.

Ella- thats my point though! You will never stop abusers abusing and no amount of telling women it's not their fault will stop abuse. Surely women need to betaught to recognise abusers and avoid them and abusive situations as much as they can?

Oh heavens onefatcat, do you really believe that? Have you ever been in an abusive relationship or known someone who is? It's not like you can walk into a suite at the Ritz with 24/7 bodyguards to keep you safe.

Perhaps it's not just upset parents and frightened young girls who are desperate to lay blame at the door of victims because that seems an easier option than accepting that they or someone they care about could be vulnerable to sexual attack, just for the simple reason of being a female.

onefat - what do you propose to do for these women then? I can think of a way to raise 'self esteem' - why don't we teach children that abusive relationships are wrong, and punish adults according to the law when they participate in abuse? If abusive men knew they couldn't get away with it (I say 'men' because you mentioned women's self esteem, btw), they wouldn't do it.

I'm sure that would solve a lot of these 'self esteem' problems, wouldn't it?

I also HATE the "sexy" hen night trend. Don't kid me that women enjoy dressing in cheapo bits of polyester and glitter and getting letched at by sub-standard men. I'm sure that some will come on here to tell me that I Am Wrong but if they look deep enough, they know that they only think that they enjoy it.

How do you know what other women think - it is actually rather offensive to think that your viewpoint is the view of every other women! I don't need to "look deep" - I'm not saying I would enjoy it (well I probably would ) but I have the capability to understand that others might enjoy something I don't and vice versa.

I work with adults who have been sexually abused as children and sexually assaulted and can say that OPs thoughts are very common - and yes of course a big issue is whether they are going to be believed or not, especially since paedophiles are very good at using fear of this as a mechanism for ensuring their victims silence. I always believe a patient who tells me they have been sexually assaulted as they have reached me in the first place, and it always involves me asking what happened.

But this is the internet and not everyone tells the truth - no-one on this thread has accused the OP of lying, I think the general question posed by WL asking for more information was ok - and as was OPs reaction - because they clearly have a lot of underlying anger issues to deal with, and could have read this as a "how dare you, don't you believe me" type reaction and representation of a bigger fear.

I don't think all the "how dare you you are sick for asking" type posts have been helpful to the OP either tbh, original post was very bare and minimal and it was natural that someone would come along and ask what had happened.

OP - I'm so sorry that you have had these experiences and wonder what kind of help you have had to come to terms with it all? Therapy can never make you forget the past but it can help you to process your feelings about it all so you can find some peace in your life and manage your relationships.

No women asks for or invites sexual assault, there is absolutely no excuse. And if someone has a history of this from men then naturally their opinions of men and trusting them again could be affected - but not all men are rapists etc, and this is important to remember. The most worrying and sad post on this whole thread for me is the woman who finds it sick that men have called her daughter beautiful. I would hope this little girl doesn't grow up with a distrust and fear of 50% of the worlds population for her own sake.

OP - good luck

I don't believe you will never stop abusers abusing. The evidence shows this is not so. Rape used to be legal in marriage; now it is rightly considered a crime. You can stop abusers abusing and go to the root of the problem, which is not women's low self-esteem, but the abuse that causes it.

The comment saying Ops breasts "weren't that big" - was made by 1 person every early on in thread, who hasn't been back. It is not a general representation of opinions here.

Why did my Step Dads best mate ping my bra strap when I was 17 and him 23, because HE thought it was fun and its what you do to women.

Why did my FIL photographer my cleavage, not me just my tits?, because he thought he was allowed to do it and its fun, but he also thinks its fun and clever to reduce women to objects full stop.

I could reel off a few more.

It was nothing I said or did, it wasn't down to my looking vulnerable or giving out signals, or even where my self esteem was.

It was because those men thought that it was acceptable, fun, clever, or just their RIGHT, not becasue I did anything.

The pattern to abusive relationships/situations is that they always occur in the presence of an abuser. Just as rape always involves a rapist. Now we know that, we can start looking at how to stop abusers abusing and the problem will be solved.

How does that explain the high number of women who have several abusive relationships. That is a known pattern. Nobody is saying that the abusers are right, or should not be stopped, but when a woman goes from one abusive relationship to another, she is the one who is in need of support and help to stop the pattern continuing with the next relationship.

It is far more of a possibility to educate and help women spot the signs, and encourage them to build their confidence and self esteem than try stop abusers. I am not suggesting that abusers should not be stopped, I am simply saying that tackling it from the angle of giving them less chances to be abusers is more feasible. Once you are punishing an abuser for abuse, that means the abuse has happened. To me it is far better to do what you can to avoid the abuse being able to happen in the first place.

"but not all men are rapists etc, and this is important to remember. The most worrying and sad post on this whole thread for me is the woman who finds it sick that men have called her daughter beautiful."

What??

Who has suggested all men are rapists? Where?

And while I can't relate to someone feeling angry at men saying a 3 yo is beautiful, A) I think it's more sad that this woman probably feels that way as a result of her own experience of sexually aggressive men in her own childhood and B) THAT is the most worrying and sad post on this thread?? Really? More sad and worrying than all the posts of childhood sexual abuse? All the posts of rape and sexual assault?

I love how, no matter how reasonable some people try to make themselves seem, they just can't hide their underlying agenda.

Why do we need to 'explain' women who have a high number of abusive relationships?

People do research this stuff and it's not exactly rocket science to know that if a woman has been taught that abusive behaviour is normal, she will seek it out and expect it. But why do we need to explain it, or educate women, when it would be simpler to go after abusers (or both genders)?

If you insist on putting the onus on the abused person, abusers will just create more and more hurt, vulnerable people in their wake, who will need to go through the same painful process of learning it is wrong, getting out, moving on.

If you teach one woman to avoid abuse, an abuser will just go for the next vulnerable person. They won't stop.

I deliberately listed the things that happened to me in ordinary everyday life, not when dressed up and on a night out.

I have been groped twice on the Tube- should I not travel on public transport?

I was flashed at in the middle of the daytime in a field- should I not walk around in the daytime in fields in case there's a flasher about?

My thong was 'pinged' by a group of lads in a pub garden when out for a quiet drink- should I not go in pub gardens?

My boss fondled my bottom when I was collecting my paycheck aged 16- should I not have got a job as a waitress?

I was harassed and threatened by strange men shouting about how they'd like me to be involved in violent porn when I was walking home with a friend- should I stop going out with my friend?

What a stupid point that women go out and get dressed up, yes they do, but in my experience this is not where the trouble is, for most women simply going about their everyday business when young is enough to attract a small minority of predatory and self-indulgent men who think it's fine to leer and grope and poke. It's not, I do think it is becoming more unacceptable, no men dare do that now I am forty and would sue their assess off/shout 'why are you touching me?'/shout loudly 'get away from me you dirty pervert' (I have done the latter when approached randomly and asked for sex by a stranger).

(It's not that I don't get why you're saying that squeaky - I think we all want the same, to see this not happen to more people. It's just I can't help feeling that teaching potential targets how not to be targets is missing the point - we need to teach abusers not to abuse. No-one wants their child to grow into an abuser any more than tehy want their child to end up hurt.)

slightlymad - "It was because those men thought that it was acceptable, fun, clever, or just their RIGHT, not becasue I did anything."

Absolutely, I agree with you here 100%.

But for a lot of women I see in therapy its not as black and white. Low self esteem for example can affect women in all their relationships foe example can make them more vulnerable to emotional manipulation from their partner, affect their decision making capabilities etc. The end result is a lot of women stay in abusive relationships, thankfully a lot get out but some aren't so lucky as the number of women who are seriously injured or die at the hands of their partner (and ex partner to) is till too high. A key danger point for women is actually when they decide enough is enough and they want out - they are more at risk then.

squeaky

but there again, you are putting the onus on a woman not to be abused!

yes, her self esteem might well be at rock bottom, but abusers are very adept at seeking out people who are already vulnerable - they see the 'chink in the armour' and chip their way in

I wouldn't bother addressing or in fact interacting in any way with onefatcat who is clearly just here to be obnoxious.

And once again we come back to blaming women.

Women should recognise it, women should spot the patterns, women should do x,y and z.

Lets place the blame squarely where it belongs. On the men who do this and the culture which encourages all of us to look upon low level sexual assaults as no big deal and just a part of life.

THAT is what needs addressing and dealing with.

And: this is not about abusive relationships for me, I have never been in one, thank goodness. It's about being a 16 year old girl just walking about, or getting a job, or being teased at school, it's about sexual harassment being just 'what happens' to girls. Why? I don't accept that for me or my daughters, and I am pretty sure my husband feels the same.

A) I think it's more sad that this woman probably feels that way as a result of her own experience of sexually aggressive men in her own childhood

I love how, no matter how reasonable some people try to make themselves seem, they just can't hide their underlying agenda.

You really could not make this up!.. Do you not see the irony there... That poster has not mentioned any "sexually aggressive men" in her childhood

Do you know I never really though about this until reading this thread and it is illuminating.
I was a very busty child and received lots of very inappropriate attention from grown men. I hadn't thought about it until reading this thread.

I remember my uncle saying I was jail bait and my being really confused by the term. He was a tosser but the entire inappropriateness of it all is only clear now. At least he was voicing his opinions and not acting on them.

I wasn't harmed by the experiences but I felt strongly that all men were "the same" for years.
Hope you are okay OP

"If you teach one woman to avoid abuse, an abuser will just go for the next vulnerable person. They won't stop."

Well said EllaDee.

jeremyvile - I have no idea what agenda you seem to think I have

I didnt actually say anyone has suggested all men are rapists either - but in my experience it is a common feeling, wrong but understandable in people who have been victims of repeated abuse. And it is this belief that can stop them moving forward.

I happen to agree with you ella - educating both sexes is the way forward.

By all means squeaky, yes, we do need to put greater emphasis on girls and young women's self-esteem, confidence and ability to make informed decisions about all aspects of their lives, including how they interact with other people. Unfortunately, there are still so many messages out there telling girls that they should be passive, pretty princesses and be flattered by attention (any kind will do) from all important men that it undermines that goal.

But, as Ella says, it's not just about "re-training" the targets to move away from those targeting them. There is work to do both with socialising young men to respect women as human beings of equal value with their own personal boundaries that should be respected. And, it is important to challenge men (and the women who support their views and behaviours) of any age who believe they are entitled to violate the sexual boundaries of any female, just because they can.

There has to be a two pronged strategy IMO, absolutely pushing for policies/laws/education to increase pressure on abusers - but IMO its very hopeful/naive to think that would stop all abusing, so - IMO - we also have to teach women how to spot and avoid abusive behaviour, and especially how to break out of the cycle.

Squeakyfreakytoy

'we have threads on here by people who would consider a man holding a door open for them as some sort of assault'

Because it does seem, as Worra says, that the hardcore feminists are always waiting in the wings, ready to pitch into a thread like this, and go into full man hating mode without needing to know any of the details.'

How could you possibly think that these are appropriate comments on a thread where the OP is talking about sexual assault?

but there again, you are putting the onus on a woman not to be abused!

What exactly is wrong with helping women to spot danger signs, and to possibly have the confidence and awareness to not get too close to someone who is likely to abuse them. I wish someone had been around to give me advice and strength to recognise abuse and walk away before it escalated.

yes, her self esteem might well be at rock bottom, but abusers are very adept at seeking out people who are already vulnerable - they see the 'chink in the armour' and chip their way in

So we need people who can help a woman block that chink, and give her the mental strength and self confidence to be less vulnerable.

OP I developed very quickly too and in my early to late teens I was definitely taken advantage of by sometimes much older men. In hindsight, yes I was sexually assaulted so I know how you feel! :(

Posting on AIBU was always going to open a massive can of worms! I can understand why you posted it here, traffic etc. but I'm not surprised it's led to questions, debates etc.

I assume that the posters who asked for clarification etc weren't trying to be vindictive, or disbelieving, or dismiss the seriousness of sexual assault. I just think it was a little hard to understand from your op what had happened because it's hard to understand how someone wouldn't recognise a sexual attack IYSWIM. Your being 13 obviously changes that considerably.

If you'd been held down and raped you would have known straight away what had happened to you, even as a child of 13 and I think maybe this is what some posters were thinking when they asked what had happened?

The fact is, things that happened to me (I had an activity in the same hall as a boxing club and the amount of times I was full on groped while the trainers looked on laughing!) were assaults but nobody else would have seen it that way. I should have been outraged and gone to my parents, gone to my teachers etc. etc. but I didn't because although I didn't like it, I didn't see it for what it was. But sexual assualt is still a ridiculously grey area.

I'm sorry for what happened to you. And I'm sorry for my stupidly long post! :)