So - boy in dd's class turns up on our doorstep this evening, with his mother

[shagmundfreud]

... to complain that dd was nasty to him in dt today. Both children are in year 8 and have known each other since nursery (went to the same primary).

No suggestion of systematic bullying or physical violence, just a nasty comment about dd not wanting him to sit on their table. In response he cussed dd, and cussed me (apparently). This is no surprise to me - kids at dd's tough inner city comprehensive are mouthy and can be casually very rude to each other. He said that dd was pathetic and had cried a lot at primary school - not very nice as she'd had an episode of being very unhappy and had self-harmed in year 6 which had led to a referral to
CAMHS. Her response was to point out that his mother had said to her that he was lonely at school, and in dd's opinion that was because he's a loser.

Anyway - a typical annoying school spat as far as I can see, and if dd came home and told me this story I would have listened then discouraged dd from talking to him and asked her to consider other people's feelings.

So, was I unreasonable to respond thus: "Sorry you've been upset by all this, but I can't say very much at this point because it's quite hard for me to know what's happened: both of you feel that the other is in part way to blame for this squabble, and I wasn't a witness to it. I'll advise dd to avoid you at school in future, but if she is rude to you can you report it to the teacher immediately, as I'd like the school to address the issue, given that it's happened on their premises."

But actually I'm fuming. I can't believe this mother turned up on my doorstep at 7pm. What happened to letting children sort their social problems out for themselves? There's no suggestion on her part that dd has been systematically bullying or threatening her son, and dd has never, ever been involved in any sort of intimidating or bullying behaviour before in primary or secondary.

DD is steaming and has gone off to tell all her friends about it, despite me telling her to let it go.

Anyway, did I deal with it right?

I see she already has talked to her friends - that's unfortunate. Regardless of the rights and wrongs, you have to make your DD see that if she doesn't stay well away from this boy, and refrain from any comment, it could get nasty. It all has to stop now, for her sake as well as his.

Peggy, I didn't rush to exonerate my dd.

In fact I encouraged the boy to report her behaviour to the teacher.

I also called dd into the room in front of the boy and his mother and asked her to explain what happened.

shagmund - you sound as though you handled it well under the circumstances you were thrown into. Your daughter might be a nasty bully - she might not be at all. There is nothing from what I've read to suggest this at all, obviously you have to consider there could be more to it and keep an eye on this. would do no harm to speak to the school - I would to see what they say and in case this escalates. You know the boy and the family and there are some very unreasonable, confrontational parents out there just looking for an opportunity.

OP you have my sympathies and I hope you are around when my strong willed boy hits adolescence.

I went to a rough school, nasty comments, swearing, insults were all social currency for survival and let's not forget that teenagers haven't developed neurologically enough to have sound impulse control.

I hated my school, yet I did the "hard" thing now and again to get by. It didn't come naturally to me and I sometimes got out of my depth. This has thread has reminded me of how hard it and how unhappy I was there. Thank fuck all that is over.

PSML at those who think they are able to gag their children. As if! And if you do succeed, serious control freakery and authoritarianism there. Glad you're not my parents.

shagmund considering the entire thread I think you've done the right thing. I think the word bully is thrown around far too easily these days to be fair! Reading what happened, how can it be construed as bullying? Rather, it sounds to me like 2 kids who had a fight, both said things they shouldn't have but they're teens and will spend the next 6 years saying things they shouldn't!

I did ask if you wanted your daughter being rough (for want of a better word) but hearing other's stories as well as your reasoning, I have to say in all honesty I would do the same thing. I would rather my child act a bit hard and get by than be a target for however many years she's in school! NOT bully, NOT act out at teachers or even other students but certainly to be able to look after herself, and to give the impression that she can handle herself!

Ugh, funny enough I have considered doing the same thing as your visitor, OP. But mostly because it's not happening at school. I'd let the school sort it otherwise.

Dd (y5) came home crying; said a y6 boy had picked on her, was following her down the road and wouldn't stop teasing and hectoring and other children joined in the harassment.

Only I know DD has a sharp tongue on her, she probably provoked him, I told her I wouldn't take sides or go tell his mum to tell him off. The best I would offer was to go with her to speak to the boy with his mum & pressure both of them (DD & the boy) to sort their differences out so they can live in peace, or at least ignore each other in future. Eventually (days later) she admitted that she had pushed the lad off his bike and I already knew they were both in a chronic habit of mutual name-calling .

I would really like to approach the mum and her son, who both seem a decent sort, just as I said, to head off future problems between DD & the other lad.

On the plus side, Dd is so horrified that I won't just leap in taking her side that she is actually trying harder to not have altercations with the boy; she'll do anything to avoid a simple civil conversation with him about their differences. (Head in hands)

I can't believe you're being so relaxed about her getting stabbed with a compass by a boy in her class! I'd be really worried about a child of mine going to a school like this and them thinking that minor violence and rudeness is acceptable. I'd be doing everything I could to get her in to a different school.

Have read all of this with interest - don't think there are any easy answers.

Just wanted to comment on the discussions re: getting directly involved/letting them sort it out for themselves ... at 12, I think they still need a bit of grown-up support/advocacy/interest .. but this doesn't necessarily mean parents having it out with each other when the facts aren't known. I actually think it's our big, impersonal schools that are to blame. God knows what really happens - in some schools there are literally thousands of adolescents simply left to it at break time, without any real support or guidance. No wonder these difficult situations arise.

Hardboiled this is the reality in lots of schools. My comprehensive was pretty much like this, people were mouthy and if you were meek and nice, you got bullied or trampled on (sometimes literally). Everytime there's a thread on here about 'it's so important to go to the local school' and 'I would never let mine go private' I think back to my comp and think never ever would I let a child of mine go to a school like that. It wasn't that bad, but you had to develop a hard shell to survive. And pretend not to be clever of course. Not all comps are like that, but enough are and I do feel sorry for some children who have to go to them.

"I'd be doing everything I could to get her in to a different school"

I live in a deprived area, and short of selling up and moving, there is no local school which would be any better.

"I actually think it's our big, impersonal schools that are to blame"

Well over 1000 children attend her secondary school. Is that big?

What I don´t get is why, if they dislike each other was he even trying to sit on the same table?

Unless sent here by the teacher, in which case it´s nothing to do with OPs daughter?

Hardgoing I do understand this, I also went to an inner city comp for a while. I also would never ever send a child of mine to one. I also became desensitised to the things I saw and heard but I don't think this is a good thing. So many of the bright kids in my school who would have thrived in most schools went completely of the rails and are still doing nothing with their lives, it's really sad.

Refusing to let someone sit with them is a form of bullying, it isolates people. Why was your daughter behaving like this, did she apologize to him, did you tell her not to behave like this? The fact that your DD has reacted by "steaming" and running off to tell her friends does make her sound like a passive agressive bully, who might not hit and name call but will isolate other children and make them miserable. This might not be the case, but it certainly is an unpleasant way to behave, it seems like people want the child punished for the mother's decision to speak to the OP.

Just want to say that I was a "good kid" , generally listened to my parents, etc, but if this had happened to me no force on heaven or earth would have stopped me from sharing it with my friends when I was 12.

If the DD and this boy have a habit of not liking each other I think "don't sit with me" is a reasonable enough thing to say, depending on whether it was said like that "Ew! Don't sit here ya cunt!"

It's perfectly understandable that the other mum wanted to sort it out, but she should have called.

OP, how was school for your DD today?

"Refusing to let someone sit with them is a form of bullying, it isolates people. Why was your daughter behaving like this?"

Probably because she doesn't like him and never has. He was an utter pain in the arse all the way through primary and very, very disruptive and silly in class. He's been rude to her in the past - name calling etc.

"but it certainly is an unpleasant way to behave"

Yes - if she'd been behaving like an adult she would have overlooked the name calling and years of rudeness and have allowed him to sit next to her. But she's not an adult. She's 12, and she doesn't like this boy.

Beyond, thanks for asking. Have just had a very cheerful dd call from her friend's house where they are making (and probably eating) a cake. No reports of any trouble. Yet.

"running off to tell her friends does make her sound like a passive agressive bully"

I think it makes her sound like a typical twelve year old girl.

Actually the thing that she seemed to be most animated about on the phone was the fact that his mum had bought him round to ours wearing fluffy socks and plastic mules.

Hardgoing - the worst bullying I have ever heard about was witnessed by a friend at a very grand and expensive public school. Nothing on that scale or of that depravity had ever gone on at my comprehensive so dont think teenage angst/bullying is something you can buy your way out of...

No a typical twelve year old girl does not behave that way if their parents have explained to them that it is wrong, especially not sitting on the 'phone making 'phone of how someone dresses unless they have a catty streak.

I wouldn't have sat by and allowed my dd to make that phone call. And shagmundfried, I don';t think you have a particularly nice attitude discussing the boy's clothes.

'Actually the thing that she seemed to be most animated about on the phone was the fact that his mum had bought him round to ours wearing fluffy socks and plastic mules."

this is all really bitchy isn't it op? seriously...

Yes. It's bitchy.

She should be talking about ponies and guides for goodness sake. Not boys and clothes.

"No a typical twelve year old girl does not behave that way if their parents have explained to them that it is wrong"

Isn't that interesting. I've told dd that looks don't matter, and that watching tv, wasting time on the internet and gossiping about other kids at school is all something she shouldn't be doing as there are so many things that are more worthwhile. And yet she persists in doing it!

Goodness me. It must be because she's at a big comp. If I'd sent her to a nice private girls' school and lectured her on morals more regularly she'd NEVER talk about people behind their backs or laugh at the way someone dresses.

How old are your kids Scarlett and Kelly? Can you give me some tips as to how I can stop my dd behaving like all her friends?

I am quite by this thread tbh.

I see nothing in the OP to suggest bullying - in fact I see that there has catagorically not been any suggestion that any bullying has been going on.

Yet a whole bunch of posters have taken it upon themselves to read deep between the lines and, with no evidence whatsoever, brand the OP's DD a bully

In fact, the OP has made it clear throughout the thread that the boy has actually been systematically nasty to her DD over a period of years...but (unless I have missed it, in which case I apologise) I don't see a single person asking' "OP, are you sure this boy isn't bullying your DD?"

Now the OP herself hasn't accused the boy of bullying, nor has she claimed her DD is totally innocent. She seems to me to have basically said that she feels this is six of one and half a dozen of the other. Her surprise is surely that the other paremt has taken it upon herself to directly approach her in her own home rather than discussing this with school?

My DCs do not attend a rough inner city school, I expect them to do as I ask (ie not discuss things further if I have asked them not to) and I don't expect them to swear - in front of me or behind my back, so I am not able to fully relate to the OP's post, or her DD's behaviour. I can, however, only accept her judgement on this situation (as it is all we have, and she has put it across clearly), and on the norms of behaviour in her DD's school, and the only bullying I see evidence of is a bunch of posters belittling a women and being quite unpleasent about a child who is unable to have her say.

Fourkids, my dd has been really hard work over the past couple of years, constantly, constantly testing the boundaries. We try very hard to be consistent and feel we set her a good example with our own behaviour. But she is rebellious - we choose our battles carefully.

You must be a very competent parent and have very compliant children to have confidence that they are always doing what you ask and what you expect of them. I wish I could say the same.

Re: the swearing, or 'cussing' - dd doesn't use swear words like 'fuck' or 'shit' in front of us or (I believe) with her friends. But she does use words like 'sket' and other street slang which I don't really understand. She also does a lot of that teeth kissing thing - she's mixed race and I think she likes to 'big up' her West Indian roots. Sometimes I look at her and think she's like a 12 year old girl version of Ali G..... She's very much into being 'street'......

shagmund - you sound like you have your head screwed on.

The teeth kissing thing would make my hand itch though

On a selfish not, this thread has got me worried about the school DS1 will likely go to next year