to be getting alarmed at how Catholic the Catholic school is?

[ButterP]

I know, I know...

I really didn't want DD1 to go to a faith school. If other people want to bring up thier children within a faith, that is thier choice, but it is not ours. While we teach them to respect other faiths and belief systems, and of course we want them to have a good knowledge of the bible etc for cultural reasons, I really was not keen on sending her somewhere where she would be taught it as fact. But then I didn't want her at school full stop, so there you go.

However, we applied, on time, to the eight nearest schools (all the ones within a half hour bus ride) and none of them had a place. Eventually, just before the schools broke up for the holiday, we got a phonecall to say a place had come up at the outstanding-ofstead, right next to the ILs (who do a lot of childcare for us), academic reputation (which would fit with our family - not that we are all clever, but we are bookish) and loads of green space school where DH went to nursery. He didn't however go to the actual school, because it is Catholic, and his parents are not. In fact, nobody in our families is.

DH was very keen for her to go - he admires the work ethic that he says catholic schools have, he thinks she will get much better teaching in public speaking, the classics, latin and so on. I doubt that any primary state school does this, but the school does seem really nice, and it was pretty much the only option without her being sent to the other side of the city.

I asked on our visit about the catholic aspect, and the teacher reassured me that it is just two prayers a day. We prayed at my secular school, so that is fine, and I really don't mind her learning to cross herself etc. According to the admissions data, only about 40% of each year is Catholic anyway.

We decided that we would just not volunteer for churchy things (mainly because I wouldn't know what to do if required to do anything beyond bowing my head respectfully, and would feel a bit insulting towards the Catholics if I was to fake it, iyswim). With DD, we have gone for a "some people believe the bible is true, some people call God different things like Allah, some don't think he is real, and they are all fine" kind of approach.

Apart from that, we are fully behind the school, we go in to read, help with the fete, everything.

But this week, the homework was the usual reading book, sharing book, maths game, sound book, flashcards (sounds like a lot put like that!) and a letter to ask for the child to bring in something from their baptism. DD1 keeps crossing herself randomly, and there seems to be much more praying than I expected. The involved parents - PTA etc - all seem to know each other from church.

AIBU to be a bit, well, alarmed is the wrong word...wobbly...about all this? Does it carry on like this through the school? Should I be reading a book about Catholism to find out what on earth they do? I admit to knowing very little outside of TV.

YANBU to be alarmed.

It's a catholic school. The whole ethos of the school will be based around catholicism. For what it's worth, nobody will be trying to convert her or tell her she'll burn in hell for not being a catholic. I suspect she's just trying to fit in with her friends. I doubt she'll learn latin (does your husband live in 1546 ). She will cover a huge range of other religous faiths. It's an outstanding school so if she works hard she'll get a great education and a good base for secondary school. If you want to learn more about catholicism, then any good bible shop will have a good range of books and leaflets. Activities will involve the local church and there will be a certain amount of teaching about the catholic faith (that's why we send our children to catholic schools). Since your daughter isn't baptised (into the catholic faith), perhaps you could spend a little time helping her to find out what happens and, as someone else suggested, draw a picture. In the meantime, don't worry - when I was ten I was going to be a nun and spent a lot of time crossing myself and being very obviously religous. Clearly I didn't get me to a nunnery and my (very catholic) parents breathed a sigh of relief :o

You can talk to your priest about this issue (you've got one by default). It might not work out but, for example, my mum was an atheist (and so am I) but my dad's family is Catholic and so of course we participate in the church to some extent and it's always been fine (er, with most of them, obviously some people disapprove of marrying out).

Our priest visited my mother regularly through her final illness and offered blessings, masses were given for her, and her wake (after her secular funeral) was held in the parish club--she was supported by the church with the full understanding that she was a non-hostile non-religious member of the community. There are lots of bad things about the Catholic church but it's not the Borg...it's catholic, haha. Your priest might have some good ideas about how to participate without inadvertently indoctrinating your daughter (although of course always remember that he will think it a very good thing if she were indoctrinated! for the best reasons in his philosophy).

Just keep talking about systems for living/making sense of the world and how different groups come up with different ones. Just keep undermining the certainty, I guess, and she'll have enough defenses to take the good parts from Christianity and leave the bad, I hope!

I'm from Ireland where 92% of the primary schools are Catholic. Basically if you want your child to go to school, it's gonna be a Catholic school. I'm Catholic by birth but I don't consider myself any religion now, however I really wouldn't mind if my DS ended up at a Catholic school as I feel they have a good ethos.

Catholicism isn't really an evangelical religion so I wouldn't worry about your DD wanting to join it - if she's not baptised she won't really be included in the intricacies of the religion so she's already behind the game IYSWIM. If 60% of the pupils aren't Catholic then I would imagine exercises like bringing in stuff from baptism is geared with this in mind. As someone else suggested, perhaps look it up with her on the internet and have her draw a picture of a baby in a baptism robe.

Some quick pointers on Catholicism:

It's called "mass" not service
Mass is said by a priest whom you address as "Father" and whatever name he is known by eg Father Ted. IME most priest are known by their second name rather than their first, so it would be Father Crilly for example.
Children are baptised shortly after birth, then make their first confession and first communion when they're about 7. They make their confirmation at about 12.
Catholics believe Mary mother of Jesus was a virgin and she's a very important part of the religion. She has her own prayer, the Hail Mary, and her own feast day in May.

Catholics do generally believe in evolution. The creation story is more considered to be a parable than anything true.
Mass is a pretty dull affair generally. There is a lot kneeling and standing, generally not much singing (depending on the church) and about three quarters of the way through there's the eucharist where you go to take communion. It would definitely be worth going to a mass just to get a feel for things.

Even though all my friends were Catholic, we all went to Catholic schools, crossed ourselves all the time etc etc etc I would say none of them is Catholic now. At school it was all just background noise really!

Oh and just because the other 60% aren't catholic, that doesn't mean that they're non-religous. They could be CofE (christening happens there) and, like yourself, a catholic school was their only option (no CofE school in the area?). Faith schools are also a popular choice for other faiths ie muslim, hindu, jewish. None of these will be forced to take part in masses etc although in my experience of my own education and my children's, they will usually attend and are simple expected to sit quietly while the mass goes on. I've never known a non-catholic parent to object to it. In my opinion it's a good lesson in respecting the beliefs and practices of others, which in today's world can only be a good thing.

OP, the three things you have mentioned:

1. Baptism. Most Christian denominations baptise infants, not just Catholics. So a lot of the non-Catholic children in the school will have been baptised. Lots of people who never go to church (and sometimes are not believers) still have their babies baptised in an Anglican church.

1. Evolution. The Catholic church does believe in evolution, but evolution is generally not taught at Primary level anyway in any great detail.

1. Statues of the Virgin Mary. Surely the aesthetic elements of religion are one of its most appealing and educational parts, regardless of whether you believe in God or not?

I might have some reservations about a denominational school, but the ones you've mentioned are not (to me at least) anything to worry about.

BB, you said the church services are not as similar as they once were. Is that because of changes to the Catholic service, the Anglican service, or both? Sorry for the thread derailment, but I was just interested as I haven't been in a church for about 10 years.

Not all Christian denominations practise infant baptism: a devout Evangelical friend of mine was delighted to get her son into the local Catholic school until the priest told him that his mum would go to hell because she hadn't been baptised as a child.

Its a Catholic school, what do you expect!

what does it matter what she expects, pigletmania, if there is no choice locally? not everybody has the financial option to either go private or HE?

I can't get over the fact that you dd was even offered a place. Or that its a 40/60 split. Ds1 started school 3 years ago, and there were a few non catholic children, out of 60. Apparently this year applications were so many, that many catholic children did not get in and many parents were most unhappy. Many of the mums trying to get their siblings in for next year, have been discussing that fortnightly mass attendance would not be enough, and that they had all agreed to go every week, just to make sure.
So ours is not like yours. no 40/60 split here !!
Yesterday I signed ds1 up for Holy Communion. He is very excited.
And I too will make sure, I go weekly, in order to get ds2 in, not next year, but the year after.

FFS it is a church school
Move your child to another school if you don't like it even if it is harder to get to or infringes on your free child care

Move your child to another school if you don't like it

Just like that, its so easy... do people not read OPs?

However, we applied, on time, to the eight nearest schools (all the ones within a half hour bus ride) and none of them had a place.

1. Your child attends an outstanding school.
2. She is settled and happy.

What was your problem again???

Like Oblomov, I am amazed at the 40/60 split. My DC's school has for the past few years been a 100% catholic intake. Not to say non-catholics don't apply, they just don't get places. This year they had to turn away baptised catholic children of the parish, because they simply did not have enough spaces. If your child is lucky enough to get a space in this outstanding school, and she is happy, then do not spoil it for her by making an issue over her crossing herself. It is a big part of our faith- catholic schools will teach children to make the sign of the cross.

Oblomov- do baptised siblings not get priority in your school? Ours do. Then they look at the distance from school. That is what upset a lot of people. We have a big parish and those living furthest away did not get a place. Regardless of mass attendance.

I wouldn't worry too much about your DD, even if she comes home saying Hail Mary's. I do think that its unfair that you basically had your hand forced in sending her to any overtly faith oriented school and I have issues that any faith school is a state school (not too bothered about the state funding element, if there's need in an area I do think there should be SOME funding for faith school) and I find the argument "Well you could always HE" is unfair as every child has the right to state education without being indoctrinated.

Saying all that, I was heavily into Christianity when I was a little girl, I was so pious and used to tell my folks that they should ask for forgiveness as they'd go to hell otherwise, pretty much every day... my folks aren't religious. The school was overwise wonderful, I left the 'faith' behind when I left the school.

I think you should keep being the parent you've always been, she's discovered a new viewpoint that's all and will probably discover more as she grows (hopefully), I also remember wanting to convert to every religion as it came up in RE!!

Our local catholic school has a very large catchment area, it serves half the Catholic families in the county, there's also plenty of room in the more run of the mill agnostic (with a nod to Christian tradition) schools in the area, so really therein lies my problem... there is something WRONG if your only allocation was a faith school.

YANBU OP, though with your balancing views I wouldn't worry about your DD's faith too much, she will find her own way eventually.

YABU. I went to a Catholic school and was fine. Don't worry about it, there's nothing wrong with Catholics.

I kind of understand where the OP is coming from. My dcs go to the local CofE village school. I was astonished by how pervasive religion is. They often go to the church and the vicar is often at the school. They have classes where they baptise dolls and even the phtography club were taking photos entitled "Where I see God". The school prayer is said in class every day. I was prepared for religious assemblies but not a lot else.

This is my local state school (there is no other where we live). I did not choose a religious school and feel no need to support its ethos. The OP's child was not given a place at the 8 schools she applied to but was offered one at a Catholic school she did not apply to. Her daughter is entitled to an education from the state and she is not required to support the religious ethos of the school, particularly when she did not choose it.

All that said OP, we are an atheist household and the dcs so far remain of a robustly atheist persuassion.

Cory I was talking about the school not the fact it's the only one on offer to the op, not the schools fault but LEA for lack of non faith schools in her area

Sorry, when I say secular, I mean mainstream state. I know it isn't actually secular (which is a scandal in itself - if we are all about choice, why can't atheist families have a "faith" school, but that's a whole other issue) but my parents chose to send me there because they didn't want me brought up in a religion. Didn't work, like, but that was the idea.

There is no other option, DD1 has free school meals, so private is so out of our possibilities that it isn't worth even looking. Although I did, and there are none with less than an hour (at rush hour, maybe less when public transport isn't as busy) commute anyway.

It is a lovely, friendly school anyway, just a bit different to what I am used to.

If I am at assembly or wherever, and people start saying prayers and crossing themselves etc, what is the polite thing to do? Just bow my head?

LizzieMo, yes we too, catholic siblings get preference. Many who were turned down were catholics, first children, so no siblings already in. And catholics on outskirts/borders of catchment. We had EXACTLY the same problems , as you did Lizzie.
I so hope I get ds2 in there !!

I come from a practicing Catholic family and had a Catholic education and I'm now an evangelical atheist! [hgrin]

YNBU to be wobbly as it's all unfamiliar to you but I really wouldn't worry about it. Keep talking sense to her (my kids have never had a problem with their grandparents believing in god while their parents don't) be prepared that she might have a pious phase, many young people do, and she'll come out of it being well informed of both sides of the issue and able to make up her own mind. Which can't be bad!

why can't atheist families have a "faith" school, but that's a whole other issue

They probably could - but atheists tend to be secularists who reject the notion of segregation based on belief or lack of it so they don't want to create yet more segregated schools.

If I am at assembly or wherever, and people start saying prayers and crossing themselves etc, what is the polite thing to do? Just bow my head?

Just sit quietly. I feel no compunction to bow my head.

Yup, just stand quietly when other people pray, you can bow your head if you want but it isn't obligatory

You don't have to do anything just because others are praying. Sitting quietly until they're finished is polite enough. I wonder if you're approaching this the wrong way. Your DD is at the school and it sounds like there's no alternative. So she is going to be subjected to catholic practices and influences.... but that doesn't mean you have to echo these yourself or tolerate things like making the sign of the cross. Try to provide a bit of balance at home based on what you believe or don't believe. Talk about religion as a concept and don't be afraid to take some of the things they are teaching her about catholicism and give her other sides of the story. Watch out for any indications that she is anti other religions.... prejudice sweeps round faith schools very easily. Also - very seriously - be very sharp when it comes to things like history and literature. Friends of mine that went to catholic schools were given a very biased view of both ... one being shocked to learn that 'Good' Queen Mary I, far from being a saintly example of humanity as explained by her nun teacher, persecuted protestants to the death.

Once I'd shaken off the habit of bowing my head and shutting my eyes, it was quite revealing how many others were similarly sitting unbowed!

Really?
The only place available was in an outstanding catholic school just around the corner?

Really? [hhmm]

Anyway, - it's new to your DD and you. She will stop crossing herself when the novelty wears off and you will get used to the religious side too.

Be thankful you have a place in a good school - many would give their right arm for your problem