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AIBU?

to be getting alarmed at how Catholic the Catholic school is?

175 replies

ButterP · 18/10/2011 01:22

I know, I know...

I really didn't want DD1 to go to a faith school. If other people want to bring up thier children within a faith, that is thier choice, but it is not ours. While we teach them to respect other faiths and belief systems, and of course we want them to have a good knowledge of the bible etc for cultural reasons, I really was not keen on sending her somewhere where she would be taught it as fact. But then I didn't want her at school full stop, so there you go.

However, we applied, on time, to the eight nearest schools (all the ones within a half hour bus ride) and none of them had a place. Eventually, just before the schools broke up for the holiday, we got a phonecall to say a place had come up at the outstanding-ofstead, right next to the ILs (who do a lot of childcare for us), academic reputation (which would fit with our family - not that we are all clever, but we are bookish) and loads of green space school where DH went to nursery. He didn't however go to the actual school, because it is Catholic, and his parents are not. In fact, nobody in our families is.

DH was very keen for her to go - he admires the work ethic that he says catholic schools have, he thinks she will get much better teaching in public speaking, the classics, latin and so on. I doubt that any primary state school does this, but the school does seem really nice, and it was pretty much the only option without her being sent to the other side of the city.

I asked on our visit about the catholic aspect, and the teacher reassured me that it is just two prayers a day. We prayed at my secular school, so that is fine, and I really don't mind her learning to cross herself etc. According to the admissions data, only about 40% of each year is Catholic anyway.

We decided that we would just not volunteer for churchy things (mainly because I wouldn't know what to do if required to do anything beyond bowing my head respectfully, and would feel a bit insulting towards the Catholics if I was to fake it, iyswim). With DD, we have gone for a "some people believe the bible is true, some people call God different things like Allah, some don't think he is real, and they are all fine" kind of approach.

Apart from that, we are fully behind the school, we go in to read, help with the fete, everything.

But this week, the homework was the usual reading book, sharing book, maths game, sound book, flashcards (sounds like a lot put like that!) and a letter to ask for the child to bring in something from their baptism. DD1 keeps crossing herself randomly, and there seems to be much more praying than I expected. The involved parents - PTA etc - all seem to know each other from church.

AIBU to be a bit, well, alarmed is the wrong word...wobbly...about all this? Does it carry on like this through the school? Should I be reading a book about Catholism to find out what on earth they do? I admit to knowing very little outside of TV.

OP posts:
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SardineQueen · 18/10/2011 14:28

Milly the tricky thing round here is due to lack of places many siblings have ended up at different schools. Some of the parents at school are driving round in circles come school run time.

it's stupid.

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SardineQueen · 18/10/2011 14:28

Also re women priests, sex ed and all the rest of it. I think it depends on the school.

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cricketballs · 18/10/2011 16:50

I teach at a catholic secondary school (despite not being a catholic) and yes, before I started I was concerned about how 'catholic' it would be. But, the main area of Catholicism I have found is that the ethos that is pushed throughout the school is not of religion, but what 'faith' stands for; thinking of others, putting others first etc, in fact the general morales we all try and teach our children.

Yes, there is a prayer that is said in form/assembly and masses take place at Christmas, Easter and the end of the school year, but the teaching etc that are read are more of a general nature to encourage good morales etc rather than being particularly religious.

There is also a crucifix in each classroom (which is not 'in your face', but present)

Although we have a large number of students, we also have a students of many different faiths and they are all taught to respect each others opinions. (In fact it is the least racist school I have ever worked in and all students are honestly interested in each others faith/non faith)

perhaps op you are best teaching your dd to respect others faith (especially when you are in their setting) rather than showing any disdain for their faith which would be the impression you will give if you bring this up/isolate her from what is happening in the school

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Barbeasty · 18/10/2011 16:59

Milly- the catholic church has recently introduced a new translation of the order of mass. It's still the same (doing the same things in the same order) but some of the words are different.

I think that the readings are being retranslated too, which will come in later.
OP- if you are concerned then I would talk either to the parish priest or someone at the school. You could even suggest that, since they have relatively few Catholics and therefore lots of families who probably feel like you with regards to the faith element, they might like to develop something to explain both the faith and how it effects the school. Could be a great project for the pupils!

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notcitrus · 18/10/2011 17:11

MillyR - yes, my LA is encouraging everyone to lobby the Government, given it's around 800 places short for 2015.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-13440816

It's been squeezing bulge classes into loads of schools for the last 5 years and is running out of space - local paper just ran campaign by my local school showing sad-looking kids with placards saying 'Please don't build on the rest of my playground'

Government's attitude is that local problems are for local authorities to sort out, nothing to do with them, unless someone wants to set up a free school (and we're getting a couple of those too, but they have the same space problem!) They uncancelled a couple of the new BSF schools but it's still not enough.

At least if ds is only offered a Catholic school, he'll likely be one of a majority not a minority of non-Catholics.

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oldraver · 18/10/2011 17:22

OP my son is in a Catholic School (by choice) and there is about the same mix of Catholic/ non Catholic. He too has had the 'Baptism' homework and the ones not baptised were asked to bring in a piece from being a baby.

DS1 also attended the same school with the same mix 20 years ago so when it came to things like First Communion there were not really 'left out' as there were a number not taking part. The DC's doing First Communion went out to do a seperate lesson. All the school attended the Mass I(in school) for FC and those not of the faith go up and are blessed, as are the younger ones.

If I attend school Masses or Assemblies I tend to sit at the back (well usually only two rows of seats anyway) and join in as and when I wish. Not all, even the Catholic parents, take Communion so you wouldn't be the only one and I dare say no one would notice if you didnt take part.

Both my DC's got a place easily at this school as at the time of applying it was undersubscribed (and numbers have gone down from 150 in DS1'S time to 80 now). There was a while when even Catholic children couldn't get in, (just after the first SAT's where the school scored well).. They are back to taking allcomers now Grin

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GuillotinedMaryLacey · 18/10/2011 19:56

Fair enough Helltotheno, I thought it was about schools in particular rather than the church IYSWIM :)

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Daughteroflilith · 18/10/2011 20:18

I sympathise with the OP if this was the only option. However, I can't agree with people who say that this is some harmless belief system. Firstly, lots of children love learning about dinosaurs, mainly boys but girls, too. In spite of what a previous poster has claimed, Catholics tend to be a bit more literal about the Bible than other faiths. The Book of Genesis claims that The Earth was created in seven days. Therefore, the fossil record is the work of the Devil. Do you want to subject your DCs to that? Actually I've never understood how Christians who claim to believe in evolution get around this. OK, so you believe in this book called The Bible, but you admit the first chapter is crap?

As for sex education, condoms; homosexuality; and sex before marriage are evil. A nice education for your children?

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TheFallenMadonna · 18/10/2011 20:33

Catholics tend to be less literal about the bible than other christian groups IME.

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demonicma · 18/10/2011 20:47

haven't read all of this but my children are Catholic and attended Catholic primary school but secular secondary. The understanding in attending the Catholic primary is that ALL children are expected to attend Mass regardless of faith.If you don't like it, don't go there. However all faiths are studied - Ds recently brought home a card to celebrate Jewish new year, and has studied Islam and celbrated Diwali, even though almost all the children are Catholic, or Christian. When the Catholic children are preparing for the sacraments, then non-catholic children do other work but along a similar theme of caring for others, sharing, being kind. A few years ago, the children put on a play in the Church and the role of Jesus was played by a Pakistani Muslim! Grin

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Dragonwoman · 18/10/2011 21:07

I don't know why people are amazed that she got into a Catholic school as a non Catholic or that it's the only one with places. While some Catholic schools are very over-subscribed, this is regional. In our area the Catholic schools always have places, will take anyone & are not highly regarded.

This may be because Traveller children and Polish children make up a large proportion of the intake, so prejudice may be a factor from other parents. But the Catholic schools here have never been academically good performers. Very few non-Catholics will go there by choice & not all Catholics in the area choose them either.

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staylucky · 18/10/2011 21:08

My DD attended a Catholic primary through year 1 & 2. We are also not catholic (although my mum and her mums family are) I moved her there as I felt it would be her best chance of a good free education. I was almost immediately shunned by the churchy mums who all ran the PTA which I found really hard, I'm a sahm and like the gossip at the school gate! Tried v hard to get involved but was blocked at every pass. My Dd settled well and was made welcome but had no party
invites or social invites over the whole two Years despite us throwing a massive party inviting aprox 40 kids! She came on leaps and bounds educationally but I did find the religion overwhelming. For example I expected mass and daily assemblies, grace at lunch. I did not expect maths lessons to involve jesus, English lessons to involve Jesus, a shrine and bible in the classroom, even on wet playtime the kids would be colouring print outs of Jesus. Jesus is ok nothing against him but thought it was a bit ott.

The final straw came for me during the first sex ed classes, too much emphasis on God made me, and a frankly awful huge booklet spelling out that the children are bad inherently and have lots to feel guilty and shameful about.

My mum, Dd and I attended the church for a special
mothers day service where the childrens pictures were on the Walls and were made to feel completley unwelcome, openly stared
at etc. Thankfully DD found it to be a dull, dry, joyless and frightening experience and told us afterwards she never wanted to
go to church again. Job done.

She's back at a non faith primary since sept
and happier than I've seen her in two years, am appalled to have put her through it but can honestly say hand on heart it was for the best of intentions and whilst she was there we were fully behind the ethos of the school.

Some bits of the experience were good but it's worth a thought what's really important to you as a family.

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Helltotheno · 18/10/2011 21:10

Guillotined yes it should've been about the schools only I derailed the thread a bit I went off on a tangent [hgrin]

Has the op reported back then?

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GrimmaTheNome · 18/10/2011 21:33

DoLilith - the unofficial position of the catholic church is theistic evolution - basically accept the science as the way God did it. One of the people who helped win the Dover school trial against ID was a Catholic scientist. Credit where credit is due!

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AliGrylls · 18/10/2011 21:36

I think it sounds a nightmare for OP and I don't blame her for wanting to remove her child at all and I would feel completely the same way. I think it is really sad that OP or anyone should feel excluded and IMO is completely contrary to what real Christianity is about, ie, Christianity regardless of denomination, should be completely inclusive. I feel really strongly about this, as do the people in my church who are all gorgeous, friendly and open minded.

DOF - Re evolution: we believe that the 7 days is a metaphor. On the 7th day, God surveyed the world around and approved it.

As for sex education, condoms; homosexuality; and sex before marriage are evil. A nice education for your children?

I believe it is possible to condemn a behaviour rather than a group of people, ie, thinking it is wrong to have sex outside marriage (I am using this for the purposes of example only) whilst liking the individual who participates in the behaviour and being able to stand back and not place a judgement on them. Jesus instructed us to put others before ourselves and to love our neighbours which is what most of us do.

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Proudnscary · 18/10/2011 21:53

Wow, are you that naive OP? It's your problem if you were swayed by the 'green spaces and wonderful results and thought the troublesome Catholic churchy thingy bit would just fade into the background.

No sympathy. Clue was in the title.

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exoticfruits · 18/10/2011 22:02

I agree with Proudnscary-I am amazed that anyone can go for a Catholic school and not expect the church part!

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GrimmaTheNome · 19/10/2011 08:47

The OPs 'problem' was that the school offered by the LEA was none of the 8 nearest but a faith school. She didn't choose it.

If faith schools are part of the state system and largely funded by the state (which they unarguably are) then - while accepting they have their 'ethos' and will have faith running through the warp and weft of the day - they need to be accommodating of the non-faith pupils allocated there by the LEA. In the example which had started to ring the OPs alarm bells, simply wording the letter as I suggested earlier 'baptism or....' would have done it.

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cory · 19/10/2011 08:56

I can't get over how often you have to post on a thread to point out something that was obvious in the OP and people still don't get it Confused

choice isn't something everybody has when it comes to schools

most parents I know have put their children in the failing, least-value-added secondary in the country; it's not because they like the idea of their children getting a poor education: it is because every other school within travelling distance is oversubscribed and bursting at the seams

so if you can't afford private, it's Hobson's choice

which seems to be pretty well the situation the OP finds herself in

we got dcs into a better school on medical grounds but I wouldn't have the sheer cheek to go round telling my friends that "well, what do you expect if you put your child in a school with that reputation? "

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GrimmaTheNome · 19/10/2011 09:08

Oh, of course she had a choice - she could have moved you know. I've had that suggested to me. Or HE. Yeah, right.

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working9while5 · 19/10/2011 09:11

This thread is ridiculous.

OP: "I didn't want this, I had no choice, no other options, I am uncomfortable"
Lots of posters, sticking fingers in ears: "No sympathy, it was your own choice, what did you expect?"

Read the OP before posting

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LizzieMo · 19/10/2011 09:18

"As for sex education, condoms; homosexuality; and sex before marriage are evil. A nice education for your children?"

They don't touch on any of that at my dc's school. But they do focus on love & respect towards eachother . I don't see anything wrong with that.

As for the other mums being cliquey and excluding certain people, well that is not something that only happens in catholic schools is it?? We are human, just like everyone else!!!

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Gotarty · 19/10/2011 14:07

"But this week, the homework was the usual reading book, sharing book, maths game, sound book, flashcards (sounds like a lot put like that!) and a letter to ask for the child to bring in something from their baptism."

My dcs go to a community school and they were also asked to bring something in from their Christianing, they were asked to put their hands together to pray at assembly every day, every music session involved hymms and nothing else and that was a form of torture when dd came home singing those bloody songs "All things bright and beautiful" sets my teeth on edge.....I had to ban it! So sometimes even the non faith schools can come over a little too much - now if they had been honest about being a closet church school I'd have run a mile.

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onagar · 19/10/2011 14:55

I don't see what choice the OP had either. Are you allowed to demand they build another school if the only ones in your area are faith schools?

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exoticfruits · 19/10/2011 16:23

She did have a choice with a Catholic school. A lot of people have no choice with a CofE school, but there is never only a catholic school.

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