to be getting alarmed at how Catholic the Catholic school is?

[ButterP]

I know, I know...

I really didn't want DD1 to go to a faith school. If other people want to bring up thier children within a faith, that is thier choice, but it is not ours. While we teach them to respect other faiths and belief systems, and of course we want them to have a good knowledge of the bible etc for cultural reasons, I really was not keen on sending her somewhere where she would be taught it as fact. But then I didn't want her at school full stop, so there you go.

However, we applied, on time, to the eight nearest schools (all the ones within a half hour bus ride) and none of them had a place. Eventually, just before the schools broke up for the holiday, we got a phonecall to say a place had come up at the outstanding-ofstead, right next to the ILs (who do a lot of childcare for us), academic reputation (which would fit with our family - not that we are all clever, but we are bookish) and loads of green space school where DH went to nursery. He didn't however go to the actual school, because it is Catholic, and his parents are not. In fact, nobody in our families is.

DH was very keen for her to go - he admires the work ethic that he says catholic schools have, he thinks she will get much better teaching in public speaking, the classics, latin and so on. I doubt that any primary state school does this, but the school does seem really nice, and it was pretty much the only option without her being sent to the other side of the city.

I asked on our visit about the catholic aspect, and the teacher reassured me that it is just two prayers a day. We prayed at my secular school, so that is fine, and I really don't mind her learning to cross herself etc. According to the admissions data, only about 40% of each year is Catholic anyway.

We decided that we would just not volunteer for churchy things (mainly because I wouldn't know what to do if required to do anything beyond bowing my head respectfully, and would feel a bit insulting towards the Catholics if I was to fake it, iyswim). With DD, we have gone for a "some people believe the bible is true, some people call God different things like Allah, some don't think he is real, and they are all fine" kind of approach.

Apart from that, we are fully behind the school, we go in to read, help with the fete, everything.

But this week, the homework was the usual reading book, sharing book, maths game, sound book, flashcards (sounds like a lot put like that!) and a letter to ask for the child to bring in something from their baptism. DD1 keeps crossing herself randomly, and there seems to be much more praying than I expected. The involved parents - PTA etc - all seem to know each other from church.

AIBU to be a bit, well, alarmed is the wrong word...wobbly...about all this? Does it carry on like this through the school? Should I be reading a book about Catholism to find out what on earth they do? I admit to knowing very little outside of TV.

[GrimmaTheNome]

Finally - why the scepticism? The place came up late - these things happen. It sounds like its a catholic school in an area with a low proportion of catholics living in the area - distributions aren't uniform.

[SmethWitchBelle]

Tricky. I'd say look to move him if this is beginning to bother you.

There is a very similar - outstanding - Catholic primary within half a street of us but I didn't put it on our list - I understand you hadn't intended to use the school either.

However in your position if I had ended up with DS in the school because there were no other options I'd be seeking to move him as soon as possible - applying to other local schools and hoping for some movement mid-term (there sometimes is).

Aside from hefty objections to the faith and faith schools in general, if they're not Catholic they're not going to be able to participate in many of the rituals - I see the children walking to the church in their smart outfits practising for their first holy communion. The walls are covered in the pictures of them in their holy communion outfits - my son wouldn't have been able to participate fully, he'd have no baptism certificates, or shawls, or anything - he would be excluded, probably in the nicest possible way from much that made the school what it was.

I want him in the thick of his school community, fully integrated and confident that he is absolutely "as good" as any one else at the school not on the periphary because he doesn't do X or Y.

I think you need to gauge HOW bothered you are as a family - Catholic schools are often academically good but they're clearly not going to scrimp on the Catholicism along the way so its not going to change.

[ZZZenAgain]

"We decided that we would just not volunteer for churchy things (mainly because I wouldn't know what to do if required to do anything beyond bowing my head respectfully, and would feel a bit insulting towards the Catholics if I was to fake it, iyswim). With DD, we have gone for a "some people believe the bible is true, some people call God different things like Allah, some don't think he is real, and they are all fine" kind of approach."

Then just stick with that approach and be upfront about it. If your dd doesn't know what baptism is - tell her. It is fine for her to say in class, "I have not been baptised but we looked it up and brought this white doll's gown along because it looks a bit like a baptism outfit for a baby". If you aren't sure about something, look it up on some place like wikipedia. You don't have to "fake it" and you don't have to pretend to be baptised or anything. Just be upfront but respectful about what the other families do. That's it really. Yes, it is fine to just bow your head in church. A lot of non-Catholics attend mass with their Catholic spouses or friends and no-one is bothered by it.Only thing you should not do is take the consecrated bread. You can go up when the others do, cross your arms over your chest to indicate you are not taking it and the priest will bless you instead. You can just stay seated though, people do and no-one is fussed by it.

Your dc will not be taught creationism - that is an evangelical protestant approach. The Catholics will teach about evolution as a possibility but that God was the one whose spark set the whole thing in motion IYSWIM and that the creation story of the Bible is just that - parable as someone already so rightly said. Catholics do not read the Bible literally - that again is the evangelical protestant approach. Catholics read and interpret the Bible stories. You are confusing the two and they are very different.

There is one of those for dummies books about Catholicism you could browse in a bookshop at some stage, see if it is what you might like to have handy. I haven't read it so I cannot comment on how useful it would be. There are also several simple books for dc but aimed at Catholic families. Not sure if that would help you or hinder you. My dd had this one when she was small: Ann Ball: Catholic Encyclopedia for Children. I just had a look at it and I am not sure it would help you. It has some lives of saints, history of the church, about the parts of a church building, sacraments and some holidays. If you wanted, maybe browse in a Catholic bookshop at some stage and see if there is something that explains to you what you feel you do not know.

Relax a bit, really there are loads of non-Catholic children being taught at Catholic schools. A friend of mine who is almost as far as you can get on the extreme evangelical front sends her dc to Catholic schools because she says they are the best and I have no idea how she manages it with the views you has, can't see how it works. Maybe she does a lot at home to counteract what they experience at school. She is thankful they attend those schools though. Works for a lot of people.

[Finallygotaroundtoit]

Ok, apologies to ButterP but there are usually a lack of places at schools like this.
I accept that may not apply everywhere.
Eyebrows down

[SmethWitchBelle]

Just realised I said "move him" not "move her" - sorry for the gender confusion!

[lesley33]

tbh I can understand your reservations. But i wouldn't be too worried. She is getting the counter balance at home from you and I personally doubt tha But t having religion pushed at school will have much or any long term impact.

I don't think they should have asked all children to bring in something from baptism if about 40% of kids aren't catholic. But to stop her feeling help out I would get something for her to take in - maybe a picture of internet about traditional baptisms in rivers for example.

For me the issues would be much more about attitudes to sex perhaps being taught. So i think it would be wise as she gets older to do goodsex education at home - there are lots of age appropriate books about this. And as she asks questions answer them - also discussing things seen on tv such as soaps can be a good opener to explore different attitudes.

Only thing to be aware of is that some girls go through a religious phase - often about 8/9/10. If this does happen try not to worry about it. Catholicism does have elements that appeal to young girls - the wedding type dresses, brides of christ, the torture of saints, etc. But normally this is just a passing phase.

On the good side your DD will get a good grounding in bible stories that will help when reading some of the classics.

[Whatmeworry]

I think the noise outside the front door is the queue of parents forming who would just love to get a place at a good local Catholic school, and would have yours in a trice....

[LizzieMo]

Most catholic schools I know of don't do sex education at all at primary level, so I would not worry about what they might be 'filling her head with.' What they do try and promote is love, understanding, respect within relationships- all relationships, not just romantic ones. I don't personally see that as a bad thing.
The families at our school are all different, it is not all cosy married families by any means, but it makes no difference to the school whatever family background the children are from. So I think it is unfair to somehow imply that catholic schools are teaching about hell for unmarried sex- I think they have moved on from that along time ago.

[Helltotheno]

I do think it's strange that people are advising the 'if you can't beat em, join em' approach. Isn't there the option of the child attending but opting out of the religious bits? I certainly know people who have done that.

Personally op, I wouldn't want my daughter in a Catholic faith school. This is mainly because I strongly disagree with that church's stance on priestly celibacy, contraception, homosexuality, among other things. In addition, women cannot become priests, which confirms it to me as essentially a patriarchy. Furthermore, I do not like the emphasis on sin and object to the notion of a male priest being a go-between, e.g. confession etc. Also, I know for a fact that some of the ceremonies mentioned above - is it First Holy Communion? - take up lots of class time.

Stay true to what you believe would be my advice. If you value other stuff over and above all the religion stuff, it's probably worth sticking out. If you don't think you can stomach it, I'd say look at other options.

[Helltotheno]

Just to add, the above is only my own personal preference. I'm sure there are plenty who are more than happy with Catholic schools and are not put off by the stance of that particular church on things.

[lesley33]

They won't do sex education. But it doesn't mean teachers don't make remarks about sex outside marriage for example, or that attitudes aren't taught in a round about way e.g. saints who died rather than having sex outside marriage - actually rather than being raped, but not how it was presented to me. Or comments made in bills before parliament e.g. to limit abortion.

The point of a faith school is that stuff isn't just taught in an neat little box of time but throughout all lessons.

However, if this happened it wouldn't happen until DD was much older.

[grumplestilskin]

"Isn't there the option of the child attending but opting out of the religious bits?"

this is such a common misconception! this is why people should not sent their children to catholic schools by choice if they are not into the fact it is a faith school (if they have a choice of schools of course)

I went to 3 catholic schools and want my DCs to go to one, veins of catholicism run though everything (which is why IMO they are good!). It is extremely naiive and missinformed to think you can just have them not sit in designated religion class and then its otherwise like a non-faith school!

[Floggingmolly]

It's a catholic school, you loon. The clue is in the word. How did your child get a place if you're not catholic? Did you really expect them to tone it down so you are not overwhelmed with the sheer catholicness of a catholic school???
Get a grip.

[Helltotheno]

grumplestilskin I know people who are in Catholic schools and have not done the major ceremonies, although they may be present in class when there's religion etc so no, not me being naive at all. There was no issue with that in those particular schools. I think if a parent is saying that they don't want the school to make special arrangements for them but don't want to take the ceremonies etc, there's nothing wrong with that, it's not in any way an inconvenience to the school.

Floggingmolly if you read the op's post again, I don't think she's asking the school to change anything for her, she's merely asking if she can stick it out, given that she's non-faith herself, which is a different question imo.

[projectbabyweight]

I agree with Helltotheno. For me the negatives would outweigh the positives. But it sounds like you're in for a tricky time finding an alternative school. Best of luck.

[grumplestilskin]

helltotheno I was not talking about the ceremonies AT ALL you missunderstand me! I was saying that if you opt out of the ceremonies and the religion classes you still get a very catholic education because veins of it run throughout! in english class, in maths, in the playground, in the hallways! so people should not think they can have a non faith education in a catholic school by opting out of the big religious bits! that is naive! minus the ceremonies and the RE it is not the same as going to a non faith school

the faith is used to tackle discipline and bullying and used in the community spirit and fundraising exercises, these things make catholic schools good IMO, taking away the catholicism all together would not = an equally good non faith school as it is a tool used throughout the school

there has never been a problem in any school I went to with people opting out of religion class or ceremonies - I was not saying that AT ALL!, the problem comes when people don't want ANY catholicism and think opting out of the above will give them that! It wont, its at the core and radiates through everything, not just when people are saying prayers

[Helltotheno]

I understand that yes, of course the ethos of the school runs through life at the school. I was more saying that an option for the op would be to opt out of the ceremonies and tolerate the rest, if she's really stuck for options in her local area and thinks the school is a good school aside from the religion issue.

[lesley33]

I agree that the whole point of a catholic ore any faith school is that the religious ethos will run through all lessons. Its not confined to RE lessons, ceremonies or preparation classes. A friend brought up catholic, but now lapsed, recently returned to a catholic school to teach. She said she had forgotten just how religious overall a catholic school can be.

[lurkerspeaks]

You sound a bit bigotted Catholics are normal people too you know it is just that the practise a subset of christianity.

Does your LA not have an obligation to educate your daughter? The tale of woe regarding schools doesn't quite ring true. However I'm scottish where the catchment is system is well and truly in place - if you live in catchment you get a place even if they need to overfill a class or employ another teacher.

[lesley33]

The tale of woe rings perfectly true here in England!

[notcitrus]

YANBU - yes, Catholic schools have the right to be Catholic, but I totally understand the worries and how wierd it all looks to a non-Catholic (one side of my family is Catholic, the other Protestant and apparently raising me as an atheist was better than the alternative).

Where I live there are some Catholic schools which have been very undersubscribed over the last 20 years (Irish communities dispersing, etc), and ended up as the 'dumping ground' for kids excluded from others, moving into the area, traveller kids, etc. They're now not undersubscribed thanks to new communities from Poland and Portugal moving into the area and the area being woefully short of school places, but they are still probably the least-oversubscribed around. Given that all the other schools have had bulge classes created in the last few years, it wouldn't be surprising for my nearest Catholic school to be forced to next year and ds might be forced to go there.

Turning down a place at a school because it's Catholic means the LA doesn't have to offer you anywhere else in the borough. I'd hope that if they have an extra class that they bear in mind over half the kids won't be Catholic!
FWIW my local CofE school is hugely oversubscribed but only 10 of the 30 places reserved for 'practising Christians' were applied for - there's way more church school places here than there are Christians wanting them.

[lovethislife]

OP I second Leslie's comment "She is getting the counter balance at home from you and I personally doubt tha But t having religion pushed at school will have much or any long term impact."

I totally agree - in a few years you will find it quirky that your child randomly crosses herself. I had to laugh thinking of that image.

If it is the best school that can be provided for her now then I'd go with the flow and make sure your provide the counter balance to all the rather strange and outdated catholic clap trap teachings.

[lovethislife]

Whoops they meant to be crossed out sentences. And sorry I didn't mean to offend any Catholics but realise that I probably have. Sorry!

I had a Catholic Education and I worked out ok - I think???

[GrimmaTheNome]

How did your child get a place if you're not catholic?
because first and foremost its a state school and that was what the LEA offered the OP.

The OP isn't asking the school to change, but TBH if a majority of the kids who get allocated a place there aren't Catholics - just kids wanting a state education - then the school probably should adjust a bit. A simple example - the letter could easily have been 'Bring in something from your Baptism, or if you weren't baptised from your dedication, naming ceremony or something important to your family when you were a baby'.