to be getting alarmed at how Catholic the Catholic school is?

[ButterP]

I know, I know...

I really didn't want DD1 to go to a faith school. If other people want to bring up thier children within a faith, that is thier choice, but it is not ours. While we teach them to respect other faiths and belief systems, and of course we want them to have a good knowledge of the bible etc for cultural reasons, I really was not keen on sending her somewhere where she would be taught it as fact. But then I didn't want her at school full stop, so there you go.

However, we applied, on time, to the eight nearest schools (all the ones within a half hour bus ride) and none of them had a place. Eventually, just before the schools broke up for the holiday, we got a phonecall to say a place had come up at the outstanding-ofstead, right next to the ILs (who do a lot of childcare for us), academic reputation (which would fit with our family - not that we are all clever, but we are bookish) and loads of green space school where DH went to nursery. He didn't however go to the actual school, because it is Catholic, and his parents are not. In fact, nobody in our families is.

DH was very keen for her to go - he admires the work ethic that he says catholic schools have, he thinks she will get much better teaching in public speaking, the classics, latin and so on. I doubt that any primary state school does this, but the school does seem really nice, and it was pretty much the only option without her being sent to the other side of the city.

I asked on our visit about the catholic aspect, and the teacher reassured me that it is just two prayers a day. We prayed at my secular school, so that is fine, and I really don't mind her learning to cross herself etc. According to the admissions data, only about 40% of each year is Catholic anyway.

We decided that we would just not volunteer for churchy things (mainly because I wouldn't know what to do if required to do anything beyond bowing my head respectfully, and would feel a bit insulting towards the Catholics if I was to fake it, iyswim). With DD, we have gone for a "some people believe the bible is true, some people call God different things like Allah, some don't think he is real, and they are all fine" kind of approach.

Apart from that, we are fully behind the school, we go in to read, help with the fete, everything.

But this week, the homework was the usual reading book, sharing book, maths game, sound book, flashcards (sounds like a lot put like that!) and a letter to ask for the child to bring in something from their baptism. DD1 keeps crossing herself randomly, and there seems to be much more praying than I expected. The involved parents - PTA etc - all seem to know each other from church.

AIBU to be a bit, well, alarmed is the wrong word...wobbly...about all this? Does it carry on like this through the school? Should I be reading a book about Catholism to find out what on earth they do? I admit to knowing very little outside of TV.

[cory]

How did she have a choice, exoticfruit: I thought she said in her OP that this was the one school she got a place at out of the 8 schools within travelling distance?

"A lot of people have no choice with a CofE school, but there is never only a catholic school."

How do you make that out- if all the other schools are full, surely that makes it the only choice?

[GrimmaTheNome]

Are you allowed to demand they build another school if the only ones in your area are faith schools?

I suppose you're meant to start a 'free school'. Yeah right, another realistic option for most people.

If you live in an area like mine where its all church schools of one flavour or t'other, you really do start to feel that they should only be able to keep their status if a majority of the children come from families genuinely of that faith.

[exoticfruits]

I thought that she applied to 8 local schools and didn't get a place. She also wanted a bus ride which implies that she had no transport. The LEA is obliged to educate her 5yr old. I got the impression that they then offered the Catholic school and she took the place. I would have told them that as a non Catholic it wasn't suitable-they have to find a school place.

[SHRIIIEEEKPoolingBearBlood]

this thread has brought out all the people eho haven't bothered to read the OP and just wanted to give the OP a good kicking, hasn't it? Idiots

[exoticfruits]

A C of E school is a bit different as all schools are basically the state religion and there are no secular schools in England.

[exoticfruits]

My parents thought of a Catholic school for me as probably the best secondary school. Had I gone I would have been opted out of all religious parts-all non catholics were.

[SHRIIIEEEKPoolingBearBlood]

in fact the very first reply! What is wrong with people?

[cory]

exoticfruits Wed 19-Oct-11 16:48:44
"I thought that she applied to 8 local schools and didn't get a place. She also wanted a bus ride which implies that she had no transport. The LEA is obliged to educate her 5yr old. I got the impression that they then offered the Catholic school and she took the place. I would have told them that as a non Catholic it wasn't suitable-they have to find a school place."

They have to find a school place, which they did- the Catholic one. If you turn the place down, because you don't think it's suitable they are under no obligation to find you another one. Which is why most of my friends are stuck with an underperforming school run by a foreign evangelical sect.

[exoticfruits]

I will stand corrected then-but I would have appealed.I am somewhat appalled cory.

[cory]

You can appeal all you like, but if the other schools are full they are full. Think about it, every parent surely wants their child to attend the best school in the neighbourhood. There won't be enough spaces in the best school. And if they let everybody in who isn't satisfied with a lesser alternative, then the best school won't remain the best school.

To me, this is a good argument against faith schools: they take up schooling space and may become the only alternative for non-religious parents whose children shouldn't have somebody else's faith foisted on them.

I've conducted an appeal on much stronger grounds (wheelchair bound child and non accessible school) and while it was successful it was still touch and go and the school were not happy to have to make room for dd.

[exoticfruits]

That is why I am appalled cory

[GrimmaTheNome]

A C of E school is a bit different as all schools are basically the state religion and there are no secular schools in England.

?? Yes, there are no properly secular schools because they are all supposed to do the 'daily act of collective worship'. That's normal schools. CofE vary - some might do barely more than this but others take it much further, some unacceptably far for non-believers. Two wrongs don't make a right - the whole thing needs reforming. Unless you're stuck in the 19th century and are(hooray, got there legitimately at last) antidisestablishmentarianists.

[onagar]

Congratulations on getting the word 'antidisestablishmentarianists' in a post :o

The local authority could ensure there are enough school places for everyone who lives there without including the faith school places, But that would mean empty spaces somewhere which is wasteful.

Anyway that still works out unfair. Suppose you have 5000 kids and you have:

3000 Standard school places
1000 Catholic
1000 Jewish

But what do the Muslim kids do?

So you make it:
2500 Standard school places
1000 Catholic
1000 Jewish
500 Muslim

but what about the Pagans, the baptists or the Seventh Day Adventists? and what if there are 1200 Catholic kids this year?

It can't work unless you intend to be unfair to someone.

The only fair way is 5000 kids and 5000 school places and the churches do the evangelical stuff after school and at weekends.

All schools can still teach about religions just like they teach history and current affairs.

[RainboweBrite]

I haven't read all the thread, but it seems to me Y.A.B.U. From the tone of your post, O.P., it seems you are letting a lot of things happen that you don't want, so I think you need to examine how you could take back some control of things that matter to you.

[cory]

And how exactly do you propose the OP should do that, Rainbowe? By telling the school they must be less Catholic? Or by telling the LEA they have to find her dd another place despite the other schools being full?

I think onagar's take is right and this is what we should be pushing for:

"The only fair way is 5000 kids and 5000 school places and the churches do the evangelical stuff after school and at weekends.

All schools can still teach about religions just like they teach history and current affairs."

[GrimmaTheNome]

Well, she may be able to get a bit of control over things in some ways. E.g. with the baptism letter thing, check with the teacher that something else along the lines previously discussed; whenever something 'too catholic' arises check what the alternatives are if the school hasn't made that clear. And - if its her sort of thing - get involved with the PTA anyway. The fact that there's already a core who know each other doesn't necessarily mean they want to be cliquey and won't appreciate help. And her question at the end of the OP - yes, learn some more about Catholicism so she knows where they are coming from.

[LizzieMo]

I can't speak for other faiths but catholic schools are part-funded by their local diocese, so the local council is only paying part of the costs for them. If, as it has been suggested, that faith schools should not be allowed and only the councils should run schools, it would cost the said councils a fortune in taking over the existing faith schools. Where do they get the money from??? Also, the diocese tend to own the land which the schools are built on ( they do in our diocese anyway) so would the councils just be expected to take over what is effectively someone else's property? I understand there are people who do not like faith schools but they are actually doing the local councils a favour by shouldering some of the costs to educate children who would otherwise be the sole responsibility of the councils. In return for that they get to teach their faith.

[Gotarty]

LizzieMo If the school were predominately for whites only and any left over places were given to children of other races, it was serving the needs of some of the local community and was part funded by the BNP - would the fact that the council saved some money justify the situation?

[LizzieMo]

Gotarty- your comparison is hardly the same. Are you really suggesting the catholic church is on a par to the BNP? The law protects peoples rights to educate within their faith. It is not the same as a political persuasion IMO.

[Gotarty]

The law prohibits religious discrimation with a few exceptions, education being one of those exceptions, I feel the law should be changed. Children of faith are still alloed to apply for state schools as well as faith schools. As an atheist I am discriminated against - I am put to the back of the queue when it comes to faith schools - I have fewer choices of where to educate my dcs due to my lack of faith.

If we were talking about skin colour, but because it's religious persuasion, discrimination is ok, is it? And just because the law allows it doesn't make it morally ok either.

[giveitago]

"I can't speak for other faiths but catholic schools are part-funded by their local diocese, so the local council is only paying part of the costs for them."

Lizzie -my understanding is that with faith schools the religious institution does often own the land. But's that a relatively small cost in comparison to running the school and the large proportion of that comes from LAs. This means that public money goes to schools that can set their own admissions criteria. I wonder if that's the same with free schools.

This trend does worry me. We live in an area where the secondary schools are mainly faith schools. I'm in London. I'm not particularly happy about my kid being sent to a school across borough and having to travel an hour public transport unsupervised at the age of 11 (or me giving up work) completely out of his area where there are schools in our vicinity that take out of borough if they are of a particular faith. We lost two kids at the end of reception. Why? Because their older siblings who had no faith/wrong faith were offered schools the other end of the borough due to religious selectivity. The parents could not possibly be in two areas (an hour apart) in one go and the parents decided to up and move their entire family to other countries where their children could access local schools inspite of their 'what happens when you die beliefs' background and their kids could be educated together. I don't blame them - they took the civilised option.


I think it's a huge a pity that UK assumes community to mean faith and not geographic area - and then the government likes to say multiculturalism has 'failed'. Well, I wonder why!

[grumplestilskin]

my local catholic school is having a long overdue rebuild ....................................... thanks to a grant from the diocese.

its so sad that instead of all standing together for better education all round for everyone, and places for all choices, people turn against each other!

I don't think people should ask if it should be faith schools or non faith schools, rather why cant there be enough places at both and real choice for parents? know our enemy its not each other!

I don't think that its fair that the only good/available school in an area is a faith/non faith school when the family feel they need the other... but its not the fault of the good/available school! don't point the finger their point the finger at the void of places in other schools or shocking performance of the other schools! Those things will never change if we keep bickering amongst each other! If you have no choice but a catholic school and you don't want that then I think you shoud focus your energy on fighting for more good schools that reflect your beliefs about education, not at getting rid of other people's choices - if all the catholic schools were shut we wouldn't have more spaces and better non faith schools, we'ld just have less schools! less places! and even less choice!

[onagar]

rather why cant there be enough places at both and real choice for parents?

See my post about 10 back. That doesn't work out.

If you want faith schools you must be prepared to mistreat one group or another.

[grumplestilskin]

if the catholic schools werent there there wouldn't necessarily be a non faith school in its place, there'ld just be less in the pot!

and religion and education are inseperable to some people! its not like its just a matter of telling kids abou the bible at some point in the day .